Afghan President Says Taliban Used Child Bomber

So it's also frightening people will be punished in the after life for murder? And stealing?

Yes it is. The afterlife isn't supposed to be about that. The afterlife is supposed to be about a supreme, enlightened being, who is beyond the primitive notion of inflicting suffering.

And don't forget Odai, we aren't talking about murder or stealing. We are talking about a good, perhaps gentle person, who wouldn't harm a fly, simply rejecting a religion he doesn't believe in. A god that would inflict a punishment on an individual for that, is a god I and any gentle individual would find totally unacceptable.

When religious texts like the bible and the Quran, threten their subjects with awful consequences at the hands of god, unless they do as they are told... it's simply a means of control.   

That makes no sense at all to me. All I can do is re-iterate what I said.

Let me put it in a different way then. In a way that attempts to bypass your attempt to confuse with convoluted arguments…

You have a friend, that like you follows the Islamic faith. Your friend rejects the notions in the Quran and leaves the religion. You however, obviously believe all you read in the Quran.

So do you as his friend that believes, think it’s perfectly okay for god to punish your friend severely, in heaven, for simply rejecting something he no longer believes in?

Yes or no is all that’s required. No need for convoluted arguments.

Yes? Or No?

If you don't believe in Islam, then in turn you don't believe Islam is the message God wants you to believe in. In which case you wouldn't give a toss that the Quran states Muslim apostates will be punished, because you won't believe it.

Irrelevant.  The premise here is that god does exist and will punish those who reject the religion. The premise is that the individual who rejects the religion doesn’t believe in the religion… But he is in error, and based on the Quran being correct and the true word of god, god does punish him.

No need for those tactics, the question is simple. Yes or no?

So you'd extend your logic to murderers then? Rapists?

Again, out of context. We aren’t talking about rape and murder, we are talking about an individual who simply leaves the faith and is therefore punished by god.

MartinW wrote: God should be about enlightenment, teaching, spiritual progress.   Odai> God is.

Yes it is. The afterlife isn't supposed to be about that. The afterlife is supposed to be about a supreme, enlightened being, who is beyond the primitive notion of inflicting suffering.

Right...

So that's what it's "supposed" to be about. Or in other words, because the notion of being able to do what ever you like here and not be punished for it is emotionally comforting for you.

I've repeated this idea many times before, and you always have trouble with it. Those who believe in God believe this life was meant as a test.

And don't forget Odai, we aren't talking about murder or stealing. We are talking about a good, perhaps gentle person, who wouldn't harm a fly, simply rejecting a religion he doesn't believe in. A god that would inflict a punishment on an individual for that, is a god I and any gentle individual would find totally unacceptable.

Not any gentle person, just you. You can't speak on the behalf of all "gentle" people, that's crazy.

Like I said, everyone has different instincts as to what is acceptable and what isn't. And I'm not going to go in to the details of morality on an internet forum, certain subtleties seem to escape you.  

When religious texts like the bible and the Quran, threten their subjects with awful consequences at the hands of god, unless they do as they are told... it's simply a means of control.

Again, the situation you keep bring up is entirely paradoxical. If you believe God wants you to do something, then you'd believe it is the right thing to do also.

So do you as his friend that believes, think it’s perfectly okay for god to punish your friend severely, in heaven, for simply rejecting something he no longer believes in? Yes or no is all that’s required. No need for convoluted arguments. Yes? Or No?

I couldn't care less. As a Muslim, I believe that if he truly did wrong he would be punished in the after life. It's not for me to identify whether he is truly an apostate. In the end, every Muslim would believe a person's reward/punishment in the after life is just. All that should concern me is to treat those around me in this life as God has instructed me to.

Irrelevant. The premise here is that god does exist and will punish those who reject the religion. The premise is that the individual who rejects the religion doesn’t believe in the religion… But he is in error, and based on the Quran being correct and the true word of god, god does punish him. No need for those tactics, the question is simple. Yes or no?

Yes or no to what?  

I wasn't referring to scholars! The Quran clearly states how god will punish those that reject the religion. It’s not much of a leap to see how non-scholars, might interpret that as god being mightily displeased by such individuals. And perhaps those individuals might be somewhat more inclined to treat such individuals harshly.

Which is totally irrelevant then, because no "non-scholar" has the right to state what punishment is in accordance with Islam.

Because I'm not sure you nincompoop! Precisely why I asked you the question. You see, you're the Islam expert on the forum. It's not always a personal attack on you you know.

I didn't say it was a personal attack. I was expressing my disappointment at why you'd use sites like that for making your arguments. Sites which are not simply against/disagree with Islam, but actively twist the message in Islam to suit their own agenda.

Another question for you... How much is there in the Quran that's "poorly translated from the original Arabic words"?

 

Eh? That question doesn't make sense. The Quran is in Arabic...

 

Unless you mean individual sites using their own translations of the original Arabic, in which case much of the meaning can be lost. As certain Arabic words carry more weight and meaning before they are translated into English, for example.

 

A good example to use is the word God uses for the moon. In Arabic, it also gives the impression of a body reflecting light. In English, it just means the celestial body floating nearby. Which is why professional translations will often come with notes to account for this loss in meaning.

 

This is a good example:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quran-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199535957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305221351&sr=8-1 

 

I've got it, it's a great book. It gives a very good translation of every verse, with notes all over the place. Very thorough explanations on the implications for the original meaning after a translation, and the history of translations of the Quran and the resulting effects.

 

The Quran has been passed down to us from men called "the Readers". They were famous reciters of the Quran in the early centuries of Islam.

 

Eh?

 

The Quran was originally revelead to the Prophet (pbuh), who recited it to people who would write the words down.

 

Those words are the same today as they were then, there's no difference.

 

Add to that, the fact that the written form has been translated umpteen times, and your on a looser.

 

So what if it's been translated?

 

How does that affect the integrity of the original Quran? Which is in Arabic? The language still spoken by hundreds of millions of people?

 

You can question the integrity of translations into other languages. But the Arabic original is word for word the exact same as it was when it was revealed. Copies of the Quran printed today are the exact same as they have been throught the centuries.

 

Odai, do you believe everything you read in the Quran?

 

Yes.

 

Well, it's saying that the sun sets at the edge of the Ocean into a pool of black mud to hide it, rather than disappearing behind the curvature of the Earth, and that somebody travelled to that place where it set and found people there. A pretty good indication that the world was considered flat instead of round.

 

Sorry, but that's a  massive leap in logic IMO. I just don't see any scientific implication here.

 

Today, we always say the Sun "sets" in the West. But it doesn't, it disappears behind the curvature of the Earth, dips below the horizon, or however you'd like to put it, and you'd be facing West to face a "setting Sun".

 

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_15.html

 

However, compare it to some of the statements on the Miracles of the Quran website

 

Some. Not all. Not most. The person who wrote it is an individual. No one's perfect you know. You need to read the explanations. Just reading an English translation of a single excerpt of the Quran isn't going to tell you much at all is it? With a lot of the examples on the site, it's not particularly striking at all on its own. You need to understand the meaning behind the original Arabic words, which has not made it through to the English translation.

 

Why do you think Arabic has been kept alive all these years, as the original language of the Quran?

 

How about...

 

site wrote: The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.

 

And...

 

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today

 

Seems pretty hard for some forgerer one and a half thousand years ago to make the precise measurements required for that, to dupe people today.

 

Or...

 

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47

 

Referring to the expansion of the universe.

 

Or this:

 

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_10.html

 

And this:

 

"By heaven furnished with paths;"

 

Referring to the movement of celestial bodies in space.

 

http://us3.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/27141/THE_SKIES_WITH_WOVEN_ORBITS

 

Or the layers of the atmosphere:

 

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_19.html

 

And how there are seven "heavens", in the context of each distinct one having it's own function or "mandate".

 

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_20.html

 

 

Those are just some examples. There are a lot more, but all I'm doing is linking and quoting. Just read them on the original page to see what I mean.

 

Clearly, if you don't believe them on that site, you won't believe them re-written here - but it seems to me you haven't bothered beyond having a quick look at the excerpts.

 

I've allowed myself to get into another debate I don't have time for.

 

Like I said, it's all there, all you have to do is read through.

 

And Martin, I gave John a link earlier, you can use that if you want to ask more questions about Islam. You'll get better answers from them than you will from me.

It's a language thing. In Arabic, you have two forms of "you". Singular and plural. When talking to a friend, you'd use the singular. When talking to somone who you should not talk to in a personal manner, like a job interviewer, you'd use a slightly modified form of the singular.

MartinW wrote: Odai, do you believe everything you read in the Quran?   Odai >  Yes.

So someone once claimed he knew the word of god, without evidence of his claim, and you believe him.

Very Interesting!