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AI Departures

Printed From: Just Flight Forum
Category: Just Flight Products
Forum Name: Traffic X / Traffic / Traffic 2005
Forum Description: Discussion area for Traffic titles
URL: http://forum.justflight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22227
Printed Date: 05 Jun 2020 at 11:27am


Topic: AI Departures
Posted By: Lawgiver
Subject: AI Departures
Date Posted: 22 May 2014 at 7:34am
Hi Freddy, Hi Dan !!

I am assuming you guys are the likely ones that will be replying.  Hope you guys are doing well in your respective corners of the world.  I have a question that warrants a post or two around here just to keep the ole Traffic X forums in business.
Do you guys no of any tricks so to speak,  of controlling the departure route of the AI??  I have this airport that I have just about completed building with ADE.  Looks pretty good if I may say so myself (shameless plug).  The airport is PAVD Valdez Pioneer in Alaska.  It has a single runway 6/24 which runs east/west.  There is a stock airport in FSX but like most of these smaller fields it is basically bare with some parking spots. 
There are mountains to the north and to the east.  All northbound AI make a left turn after departing Rwy6 and proceed to fly into the mountains, roll over on their backs and disappear.  All southbound AI make a right turn and fly into the mountains to the east.  If I could get them to make this right turn a little earlier they would be able to clear the mountains.  If I could also convince the northbound AI to turn right after departure, circle back over the airport while climbing, they would be able to clear the mountains.  I still have to complete a custom approach yet for the airport as the arriving AI fly into the mountains and disappear.  My only other choice is to use rwy24 for departures only but the northbound AI still don't clear the mountains. 
On a side note, I thought AI are supposed to fly through terrain like this and continue on there way without crashing??  I do have crash detection disabled.  You guys have any ideas??

All the Best,
Rob
 


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Replies:
Posted By: freddy
Date Posted: 23 May 2014 at 12:57am
I recently sent a private email to Dan and he replied back via a library computer that his own computer has crashed in a major way and he needs to (and currently is) looking at price lists for a complete setup including motherboard and CPU etc. So, unfortunately, no replies from him for a little while. I suppose the good news for him will be that he can "upgrade" to a PC that can push the sim even harder.

To the subject at hand ... yes, it will be great to once again write in the Traffic X forums.

OK ... Unfortunately, I have no expertise at all in AI flight paths. Is it possible to set the AI to fly a particular departure route? I have no idea.

However, having said that, it appears that you do have some control over arrival routes. Only just last week I downloaded (from AVSIM) an AFCAD file by Jim Vile for Innsbruck (LOWI) in Austria. Here is a copy-and-paste of the file description (written by Jim) from the file library on AVSIM:

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This FSX Airport is more then just a AFX style Airport. As most know the Approach and Final (VMC) for AI Traffic in FSX is a straight in type landing and does not always consider high terrain at airports. This is due to the way that the coding is written in FSX and it puts limits on IFR arriving aircraft. At certain airports the AI Traffic will fly directly through a mountain once it is established on Final for a runway. What you will see with my files is a different type approach used for both the way I control AI and User Airplane Traffic in FSX. No longer do the AI Planes use a straight in approach when landing at LOWI. My AI Aircraft Approach coding for FSX uses a visual offset approach so AI Traffic does not fly through the mountains. The Innsbruck Control Tower will clear all AI Traffic (IFR FP) landing either on RWY 08 or 26 as a straight in landing even though the offset to final is 30 degrees from the runway center line. Read the text file for all the enhancements added to the FSX LOWI Airport along with a full understanding of how the new Approaches work *** Full set of Freeware Approach Charts included ***

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I am using this AFCAD and it works exactly as Jim describes. Jim's README file goes in to a little more detail about how it works. I do remember reading in the ADE manual about how to make approaches, and seemingly how to get the AI planes to go where you wanted them, but it was a bit too technical for me at the time and I glazed over it. I've never needed to do it in my own AFCAD work, and so I've never revisited it.

Now, if you can "control" AI planes on approach, then you may be able to do it on departure as well?

If needed, you could obviously download Jim's AFCAD and open it in ADE to see what he's done. Just go to the AVSIM file library and do a search for "innsbruck". Perhaps even contact Jim (if that is possible) and ask for some tips/advice/suggestions/help.

Regarding AI planes hitting mountains ... hmmm ... I too thought they flew "through" mountains. Though I have never actually investigated this, nor seen it. I note that Jim's description above suggests that "AI Traffic will fly directly through a mountain once it is established on Final for a runway". That is on approach. One would assume therefore that the same would occur for departures. But, like I said, I have never actually investigated this, nor seen it.

To conclude ... I really have no idea, but perhaps the ADE manual (approaches section), and this Innsbruck AFCAD by Jim Vile (which includes his quite detailed README) might be good places for you to start the "investigation".


Posted By: Lawgiver
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 12:37am
Hi Freddy!!

How are you.  Sorry to hear about Dan's computer.  Hope he gets back up and running soon.  Been down that road myself once before.
I am getting the impression I'm out of luck when it comes to AI departures.  I am familiar with Jim Viles work.  He is the undisputed master when it comes to approaches in FSX.  I follow several of his threads over at FSDeveloper.com  He designed Fly Tampas curved IGS rwy13 approach for their Kai Tak scenery.  I have spent many hours watching the AI shoot that approach.  Lots of fun to watch.  As far as I can tell, no one has figured out just yet how to get the AI to fly a specific departure route.  I didn't know if Traffic X had a solution for that issue or not so I thought I would post a question here in the forums. 
I can get the AI to clear the mountains if I route them to an airport to the south before continuing on their way north but there has to be a better way of doing this besides having them do a touch and go in the south and then moving north. 
There is an approach designer in ADE which I have used to design my approaches for the airport.  Still have a few bugs to work out in that area.  Thanks for your time Freddy and have a good weekend.

Regards,
Rob


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Posted By: freddy
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 11:22am
Ah, I am glad that you already know of Jim Viles' work. That's a clever idea you have there routing the AI to another airport to get them to turn in the direction you want ... but, I agree that it is not ideal having them do touch and goes at a separate airport just to get them to turn in the direction that you want after their departure from the initial airport.

Hmmm. Based on that very idea, I wonder if you can make an airport "in the sky" (so to speak). Build an airport with an elevation of whatever altitude you need - just a runway only. Make the runway width 0 (zero) so that it is not visible. The runway will appear "in the sky", but with a width of 0 (zero) it will be invisible. Route the AI to that runway and have them do touch-and-goes on it. If you make the length of that runway fairly short, it will look like the AI are doing a step climb (ie, levelling out at that altitude before once again pitching up to climb). The only issue I see here is that AI may slow down to do the "approach" to this runway. And, perhaps they will climb ABOVE the airport and then DECSEND down to it flying approaches (downwind, base, etc) ... a bit unrealistic. But if you design an approach for this runway that is essentially "flat" and straight-in, then it might be workable.

It's a bit of a "hair-brained", "out-there" kind of idea. But perhaps some experimentation might be an idea. I wonder if it could work?


Posted By: Lawgiver
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 11:52pm
Hi Freddy,

An invisible runway, hmmm  now that is a clever idea.  The only issue I can see with that is the AI would more than likely lower the gear and flaps for landing, but I could live with that.  It's a lot better than my original touch and go approach.  I will have to mess around with this and see what I can come up with.  Thanks for the idea Freddy Thumbs Up

Regards,
Rob   


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Posted By: freddy
Date Posted: 27 May 2014 at 12:14am
There's a lot of information out there on 0 (zero) width runways. They are normally used in AFCADs as a way to join runways with taxiways, but to "hide" the taxi/runway lines that get drawn. There are other uses for them as well. The point I'm making is that if you want to do some research on how 0 width runways work and are used (and perhaps get some tips), then do some Google searching ... you're bound to find stuff.

To get you started, here is a link to a very informative document that I refer to often; I think they get a mention in there somewhere: http://stuff4fs.com/Tutorials/Adding%20Realism%20to%20Airports%20Tutorial.pdf" rel="nofollow - Adding to the realism of your airport

Hmmm, yes, the landing gear and flaps probably would come out (it's obvious, but I admit I hadn't thought of that). You might even hear some ATC calls as well. Darn it. But, if you can live with these things, then this may just provide a possible solution to the issue you're having.

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EDIT:

In the quick bit of research I just did, I read a handful of web pages that suggested runways cannot be set with a width of 0. It is TAXIWAYS that can be set with that (and certainly the PDF that I referenced above is talking about 0 width taxiways). Apparently runways cannot be set with a width value less than 1. Hmmm. I'd suggest you "experiment" and do a few more research searches on the subject than the brief one or two that I've done today.



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