146-200 Observations
Printed From: Just Flight Forum
Category: Just Flight Products
Forum Name: 146 Jetliner
Forum Description: Discussion area for 146 Jetliner
URL: http://forum.justflight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=19620
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 7:56pm
Topic: 146-200 Observations
Posted By: flyforever
Subject: 146-200 Observations
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:08pm
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Nice job! A couple of observations: 1. aircraft pitch oversensitive. On takeoff, it's tough to keep the plane from bobbing up and down, despite the slight movement of the yoke. 2. It would help number 1, if in the VC the trim had a 'green" takeoff bar. 3. Sometimes the bells drive me crazy, and have no idea what's causing them 4. Autopilot set up is problematic. Try keeping the plane stable while playing around with the three panels with the AP buttons that are covering the entire VC. A 2d autopilot panels would help a lot. 5. Throttle and taxi speed oversensitive. The plane wants to roll at the slightest throttle movement, thus the need to apply the parking brake during taxi. 6. remove all those 2d panels and make them optional in the config. ------------- FV |
Replies:
Posted By: Martyn
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:53pm
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Hi Tony, Thank you for the feedback. Thanks Martyn ------------- Martyn Just Flight Ltd |
Posted By: texerrn
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 6:15pm
| I agree about the autopilot. I landed my first ILS approach today. Why make the auto pilot so difficult? I finally figured out that you have two Buttons instead of one nav/gps switch. And that approach hold is under a different name. However my biggest complaint is that I can not disengage the auto pilot the way I am used to. I normally use one button on my joystick. Linked to (shift+ Z) I think. This procedure of having to open the pedestal view, then clicking the auto button to disengage the autopilot 500 ft. above the threshold is indeed cumbersome. I don't believe this is going to work for me. texerrn |
Posted By: Mangouste
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 8:04pm
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For auto pilot, the operation is realistic for the 3D cockpit. |
Posted By: Slopey
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 8:38pm
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Z works for me for Autopilot disengage as far as I remember - you might have to check your keyboard mappings. ------------- AirHauler Developer For AH2 queries - PLEASE USE THE EA Forums as the first port of call. |
Posted By: Mangouste
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 8:53pm
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I have a problem with the lights on autopilot, the PA does not light. Another problem with directx 10 the window which controls the power ground is not displayed. |
Posted By: Martyn
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 8:38am
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Please note that this isn't a support form. Any bugs/issues need to be reported to our support team: http://www.justflight.com/support-contact - http://www.justflight.com/support-contact The autopilot operation is accurate to the real aircraft. Once the autopilot master switches have been set to on (overhead panel), you can use the default key commands (Z, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+H etc) if you like. There is also an autopilot disconnect button on the yoke in the VC. As long as you are following the checklists and have the aircraft properly configured and trimmed, engaging the autopilot shouldn't present much of an issue.
Please have a read through the manual to avoid any frustrations. The autopilot is explained on pages 24 and 25, and again in the tutorial. ------------- Martyn Just Flight Ltd |
I finally figured out that you have two Buttons instead of one nav/gps switch.Posted By: Mangouste
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 10:00am
| I solved my problem. This plane is really beautiful, congratulations to all the team. |
Posted By: flyforever
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 4:01pm
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With partial tanks, the plane has difficulty climbing above 20,000 feet. If cruise speed is 350 kts, why is the airspeed indicator max speed red indicator at 300 kts? It would be nice if in an upgrade, the artificial Horizon were made bigger. There's still a background bell sound whose origins cannot be determined after starting the plane with the "auto" and resetting the two warning lights on the vc. ------------- FV |
Posted By: Robert Nesbitt
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 11:31pm
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Try Flying on outside View Press G to Raise Landing gear and Let go I did it and It Folded Back Down and I pressed L for Lights but it seemed to toggle with the Landing gear so Flying the Plane at the Moment means 1 Hand on G and 1 Hand on the Joystick 1 Challenging Flight till you Land again ------------- The XH558 Flies Again |
Posted By: texerrn
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 4:18am
| I am very disappointed. I eagerly awaited this product and purchased the FSX version the first day. I want to like it and make it work. There are some serious problems. Not little items like the auto pilot, or unable to tune the nav two radios or spoiler warning lights. The flight model is very poor. At low speeds, as in approach it is barely maneuverable. Poor control input. I have trouble hitting the runway center line. It will not answer them helm. I have tried lowering the weight, 3% fuel and o passengers. NO improvement. I will bet I have now done over thirty landings. Its terrible, I am not able to hand fly this aircraft. I am using Saitek hardware.I have nearly all comparable payware aircraft and this is not like the others. Beautiful textures and lighting, I love it. But good looks are nothing if you can't land it. I have put in some twenty hours the past two days with this model and am just becoming frustrated. I will just leave it in the hanger for now. I am not trying to be mean. Hopefully someone can just tweak the configuration and it will handle better. texerrn |
Posted By: jrwentz
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 5:09am
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I too am disappointed in this beauty. You are lucky to have been able to take this acft for a flight. I haven't been able to do that yet, can't get engines 1 & 4 started, and the Config Editor is a joke, it locks up my computer then I have to exit FSX and use the Task Manager to quit the Config Editor. I don't want this acft, no matter what it looks like, I have just requested a return. ------------- Joseph Wentz |
Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 9:36am
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Why don't you wait for any possible resolutions to your problems? All newly released add-ons have teething problems, this is inevitable given the vast number of unique systems out there.
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Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 9:39am
Others don't seem to be having handling issues. Are you sure you are on approach at the correct VREF?
If you say it "won't answer the helm" it could be your controller calibration.
From Avsim...
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Posted By: mikeyboy
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 11:31am
I have just purchased the BAE146-200 aircraft and Wow! am I not disappointed. I have been eagerly awaiting it's arrival on stand and I have to say I do like it. Not in quite the same league as PMDG JS41 but it is fun to fly. External views of flaps etc are stunning. I have just taken ownership of a Seitek yoke and throttle and am having loads of fun flying this one it is certainly hands on. Keep these great aircraft coming Just Flight. I realise this is not a technical issue forum but wondered. I use VOXATCX and with the new upgrade to give an FMC option, the FMC takes the place of the 1st radio panel. I am therefore unable to use the radio. How do I swap to the second radio panel so VOXATC X will work? I have checked manual. Thanks |
Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 1:41pm
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Yep, PMDG are synonymous with extreme systems modelling, even with their interim releases like the JS41. So it's not really appropriate to compare. For those complaining about "perceived" bugs, even the JS41 has them. Graphical anomalies unless you turn icing off, and flickering bezel lines around instruments unless you use very high AA.
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Posted By: texerrn
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 3:59pm
| I understand my assessment will be considered negative. It is for the flight model.I know my negative comments will not be appreciated by those who put in a lot of hard work. But I stand by my original statement. I just tried again to land at EGJJ. I made a near perfect approach and landing. It can be done. However I have been practicing for three days. Using the nautical term, It doesn't "respond to the helm". meaning it takes undue effort to use all control surfaces. Rudder, elevator and ailerons feel like they are operating with ice on them. I know that this can be easily adjusted in the aircraft configuration. I have tried several landing speeds, different flap setting and weights. In my opinion it just is not right. I don't choose to get into comparisons with other products. But I will attempt a landing with the JF BAe146 then try another aircraft and the results are dramatically different. It is not my controls, FS settings or ability. I for one am not above tweaking the numbers in the aircraft config, to see what happens. I have over 5000 flightsim hours, which is easily documented. I have some real time hours as well. Not in the BAe I admit. The handling model could be improved. I sincerely hope someone with more knowledge can provide an improved solution. Sorry that is my opinion. texerrn |
Posted By: flyforever
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 4:56pm
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There are clearly some issues in this initial version. I think that an upgrade should look at the following: 1. airspeed vs pitch while descending-- the plane slows down despite the pitch down attitude. 2. autopilot at times fails to engage completely, and when it does, it fails to anticipate the turn properly, thereby always overshooting the "center" runway. 3. transition from ALT to Glidescope is tricky. If engaged when plane is not practically near the glide scope indicator, it will climb at maximum pitch! 3. The engines appear underpowered. Any setting under 80% will bring the airspeed under 200 knots. I don't know enough about the real plane to state this as an issue, though. 4. radar digital altimeter is difficult to read-- too blurry. 5. Perhaps the pitch lines and numerical indicators in the artificial horizon should be a different color? White just doesn't show up very well. But I consider this as teething issues for the next upgrade. tc ------------- FV |
Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 5:08pm
Because you are confusing TAS and IAS. TAS (True Airspeed) is the measure of the velocity of the aircraft through the air, allowing for reduced air density and altitude. IAS (Indicated Airspeed) is the air "seen" by the pitot tube at a given altitude. With reducing air density, less air enters the pitot tube (even though the velocity of the remaining air is higher), and so the indicated airspeed reduces as you climb higher. Consequently, to cruise at 350 kts TAS, at 20000 ft you need to be cruising at about 250 kts indicated. This will also help with your climb issue. Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: flyforever
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 6:10pm
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thanks for the reminder on TAS vs IAS. You are correct. Can anyone please give me an airport with ILS that the BAE appears to intercept correctly. For some reason, the ILS system now appear to be totally broken. I am using LIMC, Italy. I need to make sure that my procedure is not faulty. tc ------------- FV |
Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 6:13pm
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Does the aircraft fly off to the north when it intercepts the localizer?
Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: mikeyboy
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 6:30pm
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Thanks Martin W,
Did I see an answer to my radio question in your response? The FMC takes over the radio one stack and therfore I am not sure how to tune into radio stack 2 |
Posted By: flyforever
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 7:12pm
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Well, I need to check to see whether the aicraft bears north after intercept. I guess the biggest issue is that the localizer needle doesn't move until the plane is almost right on it. At this point the plane starts to make the turn, but it's too late, and it starts to go into a zig zag behavior until (sometimes) it loses it altogether. I've noticed this behavior when flying gps and intercepting waypoints. The plane simply starts turning too late. This is fine when flying a gps flight plan, but an ILS approach requires more advance response. The only way to reduce this behavior during approach is to slow down the aircraft considerably, even before it starts its descent on final approach. tc ------------- FV |
Posted By: mrrob69uk
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 7:36pm
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You guys are lucky you have got as far as being able to use the product!! I downloaded it on Friday evening and have not been able to use yet! It downloaded without any problems, however when I selecting to fly the aircraft, in the preview panel all you can see are the internal seats and a vague outline of where the fuselage should be. I have tried starting a flight but again, when you select any of the external views, all that is visible is the interior seats hovering on the runway with no external fuselage or wings etc! I have never experienced issues like this on any add-on aircraft.
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Posted By: flyforever
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 12:18am
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To correct above statement regarding the autopilot, I found at higher than recommended approach speeds(200 kts) it's very difficult to intercept the glide scope and make stick. However, at 140 kts, the autopilot appears to function accordingly. I've made only one flight at the same airport where I had been having difficulty with the ILS, and it seemed to work flawlessly. tc ------------- FV |
Posted By: signmanbob
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 7:03am
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I am another very happy customer. I have followed the manual carefully and find this simulation to fly very well and the autopilot works fine. I love the more complicated autopilot. It makes the aircraft a lot of fun.
I would love it if it had a clickspot on the main warning panel to bring up a 2D version. Even with EZCA set up and TrackIR, it would be a lot easier to see the warnings with a pop-up like you have the warning lights on the overhead set up. The exterior model is beautiful. Someone must have spent a lot of time making those landing gear and linkage. They look awesome. I fly this BAe 146 mostly using VOR to VOR and it has been a lot of fun. I have a few very minor issues that, I'm sure will be taken care of, but this is now one of my favorite aircraft. |
Posted By: Martyn
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 9:18am
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Quick reminder in case anyone is unaware. Please direct any issues you having to our support team: http://www.justflight.com/support-contact - http://www.justflight.com/support-contact By all means discuss your issues here, quite a few issues discussed here are not bugs as pointed out by other forum members. However we can only guarantee an official response if they come to us via the correct channels (support form). ------------- Martyn Just Flight Ltd |
Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 9:27am
No problem, just trying to help. I was merely suggesting a possible controller calibration issue, as no one else seems to have the same problerm. It appeared system specific.
I suggest you do as Martyn suggested and raise the issue via JF support.
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Posted By: jrwentz
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 12:53am
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Found the no start problem with engines 1&4. Filled both outer tanks with fuel and the engines now start as they should. Still have a problem with the Config Tool having no keyboard response and locking the computer up. The aircraft does fly well and is quite detailed. ------------- Joseph Wentz |
Posted By: Deltahotel
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 10:54pm
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I will put this to the support route if necessary, but this is a good place for observations and discussion where all can see it and agree or disagree. This 146 is beautiful to see and has huge potential, but ... I have to agree with taxerrn's general comments about controllability. I feel the flight model needs a lot of tweaking. I have just put the 146 into a level turn at 4000ft and 250kts, on autopilot. It took nearly 6 minutes for a 360 degree turn - try that in a holding pattern! Without autopilot, at 30 degrees of bank, full rudder just about gets the slip ball centered in the turn. The tiny yaw induced by killing 2 engines on same side is also unreal. The 146 has a lovely clean high-lift wing to give low approach and touchdown speeds for short field landings - the lift dump with weight-on-wheels uses 6 big spoilers for wheelbrake efficiency and is very well modelled here. But the 146 at these low approach speeds should also have good manoeuvreability - good roll rate for aileron inputs, which this model most certainly has not. I think the real 146 has 2 more spoilers (spoilerons?), one on each wing outboard of the lift dumpers for roll augmentation linked to aileron displacement, and this is not modelled. For sure I don't expect PMDG standards, but this is basic to the machine. I have tried mods to the .cfg (spoilerons=1 has no effect), and I notice that large aileron input causes a proportional speed brake movement, which of course is wrong but may be a clue to lack of spoilerons? Doubling the aileron and rudder effectiveness scalars and reducing the roll stability has improved the handling, but she really needs those spoilers to work. All this is identical with my yoke and pedals or a simple stick with rudder twist, so its not a calibration problem. |
Posted By: plhought
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 11:34pm
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I sent a quick list that included many of the things discussed here to JustFlight last week. Haven't received any response but i'm sure both JF/CLS are on it. I've talked to a 146 pilot who works in my area and he explained the control response at all speeds is very good on the 146. Rudder effectiveness is also very high on teh real airfraft, as the horizontal stab and rudder are a bit oversized for that control needed at the lowish airspeeds the 146 is capable of. Deltahotel, you are right, there are roll spoilers on the 146, which are visually modelled on this rendition, but they seem to have little/no effect. If you set the spoilerons=1 in the .cfg, you will see the correct indication in the powered flight control little gauges there as they move. Strangely though, with spoilerons=1 set, the speedbrake opens when you roll left! Obviously some work needed there. With spoilerons at =0, the gauge indications no longer work. They still function visually correctly externally. There is also some systems related minor bugs like the wrong hydraulic pressures and electrical voltages being shown. Just Flight and CLS do need to do some work, but I really think this aircraft has a good shot. Patrick |
Posted By: gojozoom
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 11:02am
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I'd like to join the "don't like the FDE" club. The reason why this is so frustrating is that the rest of the add-on (External, VC, Systems) is fantastic (IMHO). However if you happen to fly VFR with it, try to fly a proper pattern...good luck :) With a 30 degree bank angle the aircraft either starts falling like a rock, or just looses airspeed and stalls in 10 seconds. To avoid it, you need to apply 90% throttle - I don't think that's realistic. In general the plane has a nose up attitude even in cruise, and it is extremely hard to achieve a "balanced" approach. Taxiing is a nightmare due to the 5-miles turn radius (turn angle and contact point issue). I'm sure that Justfligh/CLS can make this a lot better. If the dynamics are fixed, I can call it a 5-star add-on.
Dan PS: I did send feedback about this using the appropriate channels. |
Posted By: Deltahotel
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 3:16pm
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Well that's interesting. I have never seen any spoileron movement in my outside views.
Dave H |
Posted By: Deltahotel
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 10:33pm
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Patrick, "Deltahotel, you are right, there are roll spoilers on the 146, which are visually modelled on this rendition, but they seem to have little/no effect. If you set the spoilerons=1 in the .cfg, you will see the correct indication in the powered flight control little gauges there as they move. Strangely though, with spoilerons=1 set, the speedbrake opens when you roll left! Obviously some work needed there. With spoilerons at =0, the gauge indications no longer work. They still function visually correctly externally." I agree with all that, but are you sure you can see the outboard spoilers move externally? I've checked and see nothing. (And that speedbrake opening is absolutely proportional to the left aileron input and to the movement on the left mini-gauge). I've done this in the .cfg for a good response and reasonable crosswind landing control: aileron effectiveness =4.0 rudder effectiveness =3.0 roll stability=1.0 Dave H
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