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Religion may become extinct in nine nations!

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Forum Name: Just Chat - General Discussion
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URL: http://forum.justflight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=16693
Printed Date: 18 Feb 2018 at 10:42am


Topic: Religion may become extinct in nine nations!
Posted By: MartinW
Subject: Religion may become extinct in nine nations!
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 11:26am
Who knows, perhaps the human race is growing up.
 
Quote

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197



Replies:
Posted By: Old Flapper
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 10:51pm
Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?

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Everyone's entitled to my opinions


Posted By: Rich
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:28am
I do have to point out that Martin isn't a Just Flight employee...
Just Flight obviously do not endorse every opinion posted here.

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http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Just-Flight/15266573498" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: 737Chris
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Old Flapper Old Flapper wrote:

Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?
 
Believing in the tooth fairy is considered childish, same with father christmas. . . . .whats the difference. . . .


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Posted By: Martyn
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:22pm
Whilst we promote free-speech here, its worth taking note of our forum rules:

Quote In your use of these forums, you agree that you will not post any information which is ... insulting...


Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, whether they be Christian or atheist, and shouldn't feel that they are being belittled or insulted here.


My own experiences would firmly back up the findings of that report. Out of the 300+ students in my school year, I would say that probably less than 10 were 'actively religious' (go to church/temple, abide by the rules of their religion etc). I suspect that those ten were actively religious due to the influence/commands of their parents, as they tended to belong to the stricter religions such as Catholicism and Islam.

I think that most young people just don't find religion meaningful or relevant, with it being taught as a redundant 'thing of the past' at school. It was certainly taught as something belonging to a history book at my school, rather than something which could still have any meaning in modern society.

Religion, especially Christianity, has also disappeared from family life in the UK. My grandparents are all Christian but when I've asked them to explain why they believe what they do, they have always explained that they were given no choice but to attend Church (Sunday-school etc) and its more of a habit than a belief. I think that was probably a wide-spread occurrence. When my parents were growing up, my grandparents tried to carry on this tradition by encouraging them to attend Sunday-school but that was short-lived. There was no longer the social pressure to force children to attend Church, where-as less than a decade prior to that, families were often looked down upon if their children failed to attend. That was certainly true in the area that my parents grew up (north and west Wales).




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Martyn
Just Flight Ltd


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by 737Chris 737Chris wrote:

Believing in the tooth fairy is considered childish, same with father christmas. . . . .whats the difference. . . .
 
Was going to post the exact same thing when I read this thread this morning - exact same two examples Smile.
 
Anyone still believing in the tooth fairy into their adult life would be regarded by many has having childish beliefs. To those of us with no religious faith then the existence of a god has as much proof and is based on as much fact as both of these childhood beliefs.

I don't wish to insult anyone as I know Martin didn't intend neither but anyone who has a faith has to understand that there are others who don't.

My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.


Posted By: Martyn
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:37pm
Quote My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.


It was changed to 'RE and Ethics' shortly after I left school. To be honest it was time that probably would have been better spent on subjects like Maths and Science. However, I do think its worth spending some time educating young people about what religions are present in the world, as they still have a great deal of influence on the world we live in. We were never force-fed religious beliefs, but encouraged to respect the various religions. I would say that's worth doing.

Tolerance should extend both ways, but I think both sides having their failings at times.



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Martyn
Just Flight Ltd


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 1:14pm

Agree but, unfortunately, primary schools still seem to "teach" the love god/jesus, god made the world, adam & eve story etc.

His RE lesson in secondary school is more open than when I was in school but there still seems to be an overly faith based slant on things rather than just being informative about religions as a whole. They also only cover the "mainstream" religions without giving any nods to atheism, paganism, wicca etc. etc. =  presumably because these are seen as "bad".
 


Posted By: papeg
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 2:29pm
Is it religious institutions you are upset with, or you just don't think God is real, or, if you will, some sort of super natural force?
 
I suspect that those ten were actively religious due to the influence/commands of their parents

Isn't that what parents are supposed to do, instill their values on their children.  Where else will children learn"  It's the same with school.  I suspect most, probably 99%, wouldn't attend unless they were forced by their parents, the government, and society.  It's what is best for the child and they usually cannot choose what is best for themselves so they need to be influenced/commanded


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Greg


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:01pm

There's a difference between parents teaching their children the difference between right and wrong and leading them into a belief system before the child has become old enough to question and make up their own mind with regards such matters.

No, I don't think god is real and I don't agree with primary schools (non religious based) still singing religious songs, "praying" to a god, being told to love and worship Jesus/god and being told that god created everything and everything else associated with creationism. Unfortuantely, in the UK, there isn't much choice - and these are non- religious schools supposedly.



Posted By: papeg
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Magic Man Magic Man wrote:

No, I don't think god is real and I don't agree with primary schools (non religious based) still singing religious songs, "praying" to a god, being told to love and worship Jesus/god and being told that god created everything and everything else associated with creationism. Unfortuantely, in the UK, there isn't much choice - and these are non- religious schools supposedly.
 
I agree with you here, public school shouldn't enforce ANY religion and science should be taught on a factual basis, if a theory is taught, then it needs to be emphasised as a theory and it needs to be known that is may be subject to changed, that this is what the scientists believe based on current evidence.  Only problem I have with science class is when they teach a theory as a fact. 
 
Originally posted by Magic Man Magic Man wrote:

There's a difference between parents teaching their children the difference between right and wrong and leading them into a belief system before the child has become old enough to question and make up their own mind with regards such matters.

 
This is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs, whether its religious or just simple right vs wrong, a parent should also have the right to teach their children that God isn't real, that He doesn't exist.  A child can still make up their own minds when they become adults.  I've known many children who, after being brought up religiously, have willingly chose to reject the teaching they received as a child.  I also have know children who were raised as atheists and turned to religion after becomeing an adult.


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Greg


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:45pm

To be honest, I was quite angry when I read that first response, must be my age.

 

I’m very disappointed  that the single sentence I typed should be interpreted in such a way.

 

Old Flapper is absolutely aware that I do not have such an opinion of those that follow a religion. He knows this because we’ve had numerous discussions in the past.

 

I also don't think it's fair to link my comment, and [misinterpreted] opinion, to just Flight sales, in an effort to add weight to the response and apply pressure.

 
Debate with fair tactics, not ploys designed to cause trouble for the other parties.

 

Quote Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?

 

 

I didn't say "religious people" I said the "human race".

 
You need to read the sentence again and pay attention to the word “human race”. And then define “grown up” in regard to the stage of human evolution. Many intellectuals would regard the belief in a religion as a period in human evolution that we will one day evolve beyond. Carl Gutsav Jung believed that belief in god, and the desire to follow a religion was a pre-programmed psychological need, something we would one day evolve beyond. I would agree with that view…

 

However, despite the fact that myself, and many others, would agree with that view, I do not regard an “individual” that follows a religion as childish, immature, stupid, or behaving in a way that is inappropriate for their age.

 

So thats... grown up, as in the human race no longer having a psychological need for religion.
 
I hope that’s clear now.

 



Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Magic Magic wrote:

My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.
 
I guess my daughter was lucky, religion was taught in an unbiased way, as it should be.
 
 I do think religion should be taught, the influence of religion on our world is very profound and kids should be aware of the various religions and the impact they have on society.
 


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 4:35pm

This is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs,

 

And what if those beliefs are wrong? And what if those beliefs are damaging?

 

What you describe, in regard to religion, is indoctrination. In terms of religion, parents should avoid influencing their children in such a way that they develop a life long bias toward a particular belief system

 

You don’t seem to be aware of how malleable a young Childs brain is. A young brain is not fully wired, the neurological connection are not complete. A parent who indoctrinates a child to believe in a particular concept, or religion, effectively wires that child’s brain in aparticular pattern.

 

 

A child can still make up their own minds when they become adults.

 

Evidence suggests the opposite. It’s actually hard for an individual to shake off the indoctrination that occurred in early childhood. Even intelligent individuals often find such a thing difficult. Our parents have a very, very profound effect on us.

 

We see the effects of religious indoctrination all over the world.

 

And it’s not just religious indoctrination; take a look at the tactics of dictators, ever heard of “The Hitler Youth”? It’s a common tactic to take control of children as early as possible.


Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:05pm
I will say this: respect my point of view as much as you expect me to respect yours, after all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The fact that "dissenting voices" against religion must be silenced lest it is considered insulting/offensive shows just what is wrong with religion today.

Quote his is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs

If I decided to home-school my kids on grounds of "belief" (as some do), and I taught my kids that the Earth was flat, Hitler won WW2 and was a good guy and to hate Jews was the law, and that the Earth was the center of the Universe, then I'd be prosecuted for child abuse and would likely have my kids taken away. Therefore, telling a child to believe in some higher being without any evidence whatsoever should also fall into the same category. Both are false, and have no evidence to support them.

If a God really did exist, we would not have this situation of 50 religions and thousands of Gods of various kinds as there would be no doubt.

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: papeg
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:08pm
And what if those beliefs are wrong?
 
Who's to say if my beliefs, or your for that matter, are wrong?  As far as damaging, well, you make a good point.
 
In terms of religion, parents should avoid influencing their children in such a way that they develop a life long bias toward a particular belief system
 
This would pertain to National Pride as well I assume? Atheism? Political Affiliation?
 
Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe and how best to raise our children.


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Greg


Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:25pm
Quote Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe and how best to raise our children.

This is my fundamental problem with religion. There is no free thought in religion - it is a fallacy to think there is.

The best, most recent example of this: vote in the Commons and Lords on abortion.

Now is a good time to note that we have the only Theocracy in the world (that is, heads of religion form a part of the democratic law making process - even the USA doesn't have this level of integration of the church in their political and law making processes).

So, on to my point. During the debate, the religious leaders kept making a big noise about "letting members vote with their conscience". What was meant by "conscience" in this context was this: vote as the church dictate they will vote. It meant nothing else.

The church is heavily anti-abortion and preach it is a sin etc. etc. etc. That is *NOT* letting people vote freely - that is telling them to vote the way religious leaders wanted them to vote. However, the religious leaders would never admit that they were *imposing* a doctrine on these people, and in effect manipulating the democratic process for religious gain.

IMHO all religious leaders should be removed from the political and judicial processes. Their "beliefs" are not representative of the people, and certainly aren't democratic.

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: twright
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:26pm

At school, RE was a compulsory subject until A Level.  However, perhaps being the area I live in, the proportion of minority ethnic students at the school was very small. I now go to a university right in the centre of London, one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world, and i'd take a fair guess and say that roughly 80% of the students taking the course I would consider as belonging to minority ethnic groups - people from all cultures: Hindu, Sikh, Islam, Christian. It was quite a culture shock and a real eye-opener to the wider world!



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Tom


Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:33pm
I don't know anyone who is "properly" religious. I know some people would identify as "Christian" but they don't go to Church or worship.

I was outspoken at school regarding RE - if you were a Jehovah's Witness you could be exempted from attending RE classes, but as a non-believer in any God, I had to attend and couldn't get out of it. Tongue-in-cheek I protested that it was discriminatory and was met with non-rebuttals and silence to my statement. It created an interesting dilemma for the Head Teacher to ponder.

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 7:15pm

 Who's to say if my beliefs, or your for that matter, are wrong? 

 

Which is precisely why the child should decide for themselves which religion or philosophy they wish to follow. Not be programmed by their parents to believe. And it obviously doesn't apply to basic behaviour and adherance to the law, we are talking about religious and philosophical views here.

 

Society does have a good idea what is right and wrong. If parents encouraged their children to break the law and commit violent acts, it would obviously be wrong. A prime example of why parents do not have a right to program a child as they see fit.

 

This would pertain to National Pride as well I assume? Atheism? Political Affiliation?

 

Yes it should. A child should decide for themselves if their country behaves in a manner that deserves their pride. And obviously a child should not be programmed to be an atheist or follow a particular political persuasion.

 

When I brought up my children, they were aware of my beliefs, but I didn't push them. When my children were young they both independently believed in god, and I was fine with that, it was their choice. As they grew up, without any encouragement from me, they both became atheists. Both my children are more atheist than I am. I would define myself as agnostic, simply because you can never prove one way or the other if god exists.

 
Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe
 
But we don't live in a free society, when out parents force us to read religious texts, force us to attend church, and program us to follow their religious beliefs. Thats not freedom.


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

I don't know anyone who is "properly" religious. I know some people would identify as "Christian" but they don't go to Church or worship.

I was outspoken at school regarding RE - if you were a Jehovah's Witness you could be exempted from attending RE classes, but as a non-believer in any God, I had to attend and couldn't get out of it. Tongue-in-cheek I protested that it was discriminatory and was met with non-rebuttals and silence to my statement. It created an interesting dilemma for the Head Teacher to ponder.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
 
I would say there is definately an overwhelming bias in society toward favouring the religious. It can often be like walking on egg shells, but it doersn't work the other way round.


Posted By: Old Flapper
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 11:01pm
Martin, you're a master at back-tracking if nothing else. You have on so many occasions made anti-religious statements over the years, you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith. Sorry to make you angry, but your words above were not very ambiguous, so all credit to you for changing your meaning in your later post.
I wonder if you would mind removing my account here as I'm long past enjoying this forum and I know I'm not valued here anyway.
Regarding the sales, despite wanting many ot the wonderful offerings here, I for one have not been able to bring myself to buy any Just Flight products for a long, long time because of this anti-religious vein that runs through the forums. I know I'm by no means alone (people talk), but until now I thought better of mentioning it and would certainly not encourage a boycot.
On the strength of this please would you delete my account as I've no wish to have any holding here and no desire to hear you trampling on anyone's beliefs again.


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Everyone's entitled to my opinions


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 12:57am
Apologies for the bold type, the forum seems to be treating me to a glitch. Smile
 
 
Quote Martin, you're a master at back-tracking if nothing else.
 

It’s very sad that a longstanding and valued member of the forum should take such an attitude and deride those he’s known for so long. Those he absolutely knows do not hold such views. I am not “backtracking” I don’t backtrack! I give you my assurance that the comment was meant exactly as I defined it. I don’t make a habbit of lying!

 

“Perhaps the HUMAN RACE is growing up” is easy to interpret. But I suspect you have interpreted it how you wanted to interpret it. Overreacting to the last two words of my 9-word sentence, while simultaneously ignoring the more extreme comments made by other forum members. I guess you chose to single me out as your whipping boy.

 

It’s absolutely clear that I was addressing the “human race” as a whole, as a “species, not individual followers of a religion, if I hadn’t been, then I wouldn’t have used the term “human race”. It was obviously meant in regard to an “evolutionary process. Do you really believe I would be so unintelligent as to regard those with faith, including the many intellectuals out there that believe, as having immature, underdeveloped cognitive powers? Have I not demonstrated over the years that I am actually not thick?

 

I’ve discussed this very “evolutionary theory” with you before, and you didn’t have difficulty interpreting it then.
 
Quote You have on so many occasions made anti-religious statements over the years

Or more accurately, I have stated my own honest opinion. Just as you have stated your own opinion in regard to your beliefs.  And just as others on the forum have stated theirs. Do I tell you you are trashing my agnostic views, and react with melodrama?

Do you not remember the last conversation we had, it was in regard to your spiritualist beliefs. It was an friendly debate were we both hopefully leaned more about each others opinions. I found your opinions very interesting, as my father also held similar views.

Quote you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith

To be honest I find that suggestion somewhat ludicrous. Please show me the thread were I did such a thing!

Quote so all credit to you for changing your meaning in your later post.

Magic Man didn't interpret it that way so why did you decide to?

Quote I wonder if you would mind removing my account here as I'm long past enjoying this forum and I know I'm not valued here anyway.

You rarely contribute to the forum. It seems you have only turned up this time to  cast doubt on my character, overreact to 9 words, and attempt to apply your censorship to the forum. as for not valued, nothing could be further from the truth. I fear you are not quite yourself at the moment.

Quote I for one have not been able to bring myself to buy any Just Flight products for a long, long time because of this anti-religious vein that runs through the forums.

If the majority of the members of this forum are not believers then that is nothing to do with Just Flight at all. All you will achieve with your present attitude is to render religious discussion undebatable, a taboo subject, due to overreaction and desire for censorship. That would be very sad for the rest of us who are capable of debating profound topics with maturity and without melodrama.

Quote no desire to hear you trampling on anyone's beliefs again.

Then why did you click your mouse on the topic?

And what of the several other members of the forum that have expressed their beliefs in stronger terms than me. Or is it just me you wish to deride?

I remember a few years ago, when you reacted a similar way, unleashed a bitter diatribe at those with opposing religious views. You later apologised. I hope you see fit to do the same again. Because quite frankly, we are a great bunch on this forum, and none of us on  deserve to be defined in such a way. 

 

 



Posted By: johnsmithfsx
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 1:01am
Come now Old Flapper, I can understand your being offended by someone's remarks, but one forum member is hardly a reason to cease business with the company that owns the forum. I disagree with members sometimes, yet I still purchase Just Flight products. Why? The views of the forum's members does not necessarily reflect the views of the company. It has already been made clear by the staff that Mr. MartinW is not even a Just Flight employee.

Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

I do have to point out that Martin isn't a Just Flight employee...
Just Flight obviously do not endorse every opinion posted here.


This is a forum and there are bound to be different opinions and beliefs expressed here. My favourite method of dealing with something I disagree with is just ignoring it and moving on with my day. For example, I am not going to stop using YouTube because there is a video someone posted with nasty remarks that targets Christianity. If it becomes necessary, maybe you could just avoid the General Discussion forum and use this forum for aviation and flight simulation purposes only. I guess my main point in all this is I think you're blowing this a little out of proportion and the punishment does not fit the crime (if one wishes to call it that) so to speak.


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Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 2:41am
Quote you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith

I don't remember Martin ever suggesting such a thing (or anyone else for that matter).

To me at least, what is written here on this forum is wholly separate from JustFlight as a company. Unless any of the the JF staff resorted to personal insults in the course of business, what they say here in this forum I consider to be their personal opinion, regardless of any internal JF company policy on such postings.

I second Martin's comments that this is a great forum. Whilst I don't hide form the fact some of my posts can be controversial, the topics we generally discuss here are none-the-less fun, entertaining, educational and enlightening. I've certainly never made close to 12000 posts on any other forum anywhere on the internet. If I get to 500 posts I'm posting a lot, somewhere.

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 8:41am
John and Vulcan.... good replies. Smile
 
Vulcan frequently trashes my global warming beliefs, beliefs that I hold dear. [Not that I'd define it as trashing] And we frequently have lively debates, but at the end of the discussion I still regard Vulcan as a longstanding friend on the forum, I don't think any less of him.
 
Shame others don't have the same mindset as Vulcan and myself.
 
Quote It has already been made clear by the staff that Mr. MartinW is not even a Just Flight employee.
 
At no time would i wish for my views to be a reflection of the company hosting the forum.
 
If Just Flight think so and would like to take away my moderatorship that is fine by me.



Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:32am
Yep, agree. Just look at all the stuff we've said to Vulcan and he still comes back - we love him all the more for it.

Please, let's not fall out because of religion, it happens enough elsewhere, don't let it happen here.

To everyone, if your beliefs (religion or otherwise) are as strong to you as your defence of it suggests then surely it can easily cope with the minor japes and niggles some of us throw up from time to time.

I think Vulcan is really quite mad , and, as for Martin, well, where do you start... but I still happily engage in conversation with them and consider them good guys and good friends (don't get any ideas though Martin... )

Lots of other characters and good people here as well. Where's Odai?

We're all a happy bunch here and fairly different. That's what makes things good - a little microcosm of different ideas and beliefs, whatever areas those may cover.

We can all play together.


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:49am
don't get any ideas though Martin...
 
Heart
 
I think you're fat!
 
But strangely alluring. A bit like one of those vampires in the TV show True Blood.


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:33am


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:41am
True Blood is gruesome but full of entertaining content... just like you. Big%20smile


Posted By: 737Chris
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 1:19pm
. . . .I am also offended by you Martin, I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn who makes it his absolute duty to spy on your sex life, spy on who you worship and pretty much everything else. How dare you suggest I am childish and stupid for believing in this! INFACT! Im not buying anything from JustFlight. . . no sir. . .not one thing, because Just Flight are people hating RAAACIISTS!!! But it sucks to be you, for not believing you're going to burn in hell! FOR ETERNITY! (despite being a perfectly well behaved/kind/generous human being who doesn't need to be nice just because he fears hell, or a book tells him to)


(the above was satire. . . .)

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Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 8:39pm
Quote (the above was satire. . . .)

I couldn't tell!

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: Herky
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 4:02pm
I congratulate this forum, its rare to find such discussion elsewhere! This is a huge subject, one which could be the basis for an entire forum.
 
I would add my twopenneth, a saying I personally like:-
 
  Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."
 
Smile
 
Each to his own!
 
Regards
Herky
 


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You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky



Posted By: MarkH
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 6:45pm
By the "Great Architect" I presume you mean the Laws of Physics.



Regards,
Mark


Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:17pm
Who will admit to putting "Jedi" on the Census form?

Best regards,
Vulcan.


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:52pm
Sith, surely...


Posted By: MarkH
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:56pm
Cylon for me.


Posted By: Herky
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 10:11pm
I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.
 
I align with “the teleological argument”. The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

The universe could have been different from the way that it is in many ways. It could have had different laws of physics; it could have had a different arrangement of planets and stars; it could have begun with a more powerful or a weaker big bang.

(The link is suggested viewing, being as we are on the subject);-
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2011/01/24/bbc-what-is-reality/ - http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2011/01/24/bbc-what-is-reality/
 
The vast majority of these possible universes would not have allowed for the existence of life, so we are very fortunate indeed to have a universe that does. On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.
 
On the view that God exists, though, we can explain why the universe is the way that it is; it is because God created the universe with beings like us in mind. This argument, if it is successful, strongly suggests the existence of a Creator that takes an interest in humanity.
 
And Mr Vulcan.......Try?  Try Not!................Do, Or Do Not!!
( A good motto when at 20,000' dogfighting with an Archer inboundoh how I laughed )
 
 
Regards
Herky


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You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky



Posted By: Rich
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:09am
Quote Cylon for me.


Yes! Just watched the whole series recently. What an ending!


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Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:30am

Quote   Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."

 

 

The famous “watchmaker” analogy! In reality… take a few simple factors, like procreation, mortality, and random mutation, and it’s very easy to see how great complexity can result from natural selection. There’s an incredibly powerful factor at work of course, and that's time, microscopic changes over billions of years is a very powerful force.

 

In addition, the watchmaker hypothesis is actually a very bad analogy. If you are going to use the watch analogy, then it would be a very defective watch, and a very unskilled watchmaker. Nature is far from perfect; in fact nature is replete with inefficiency, and error.

 

Quote I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.

 

I wouldn’t say that at all. The Theistic Anthropic Principle is a very long reach though.

 
The Anthropic Principle challenges some philosophers certainly, but given how so many scientists these days favor the many worlds interpretation, it’s not such a coincidence that our universe “seems to some” to be fine tuned.

 

Quote The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

 

And the counter point is that, as mentioned, complexity can very easily be generated from simple rules. Science can run a simple computer program, just a handful of instructions, and when run for a considerable time, incredible complexity results. This experiment has been replicated and verified.

 

Quote On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.

 

Actually there is! And the Anthropic Principle falls down on many counts. Science takes the “many worlds interpretation” very seriously these days. With the possibility of multiple universes, predicted by M-Theory, string theory, the Fecund Universes and others, the “apparent” fine tuning becomes irrelevant.

 

The other issue with the Anthropic Principle, is that it is an easy deus ex machina, that discourages the search for physical explanations.

 

It hasn’t actually been proven that there a way to change the physical constants, and until that’s done the argument is pretty much insubstantial.

So to sum up, the Theistic Anthropic Principle fails in lots of ways. It assumes that fine tuning is possible despite the fact it’s not proven. It uses faulty analogies. It doesn’t take probability densities into account, and therefore can’t demonstrate that our universe is unlikely. And it has been demonstrated that observed fine tuning actually increases the probability that our universe is natural.

Consider the Anthropic Principle as a philosophical exercise by all means, but that’s all it is, in reality it falls down on many counts.

 


Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:33am
Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

Quote Cylon for me.


Yes! Just watched the whole series recently. What an ending!
 
My son's back from uni, last night we got through three episodes on DVD. I've seen it before, my son hasn't.
 
Superb series, written by some of the Deep Space 9 writers. 
 
But the ending was poo I thought.


Posted By: Rich
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:36am
Really? I thought it was an excellent twist.
One of the few series I've seen that was consistently good throughout.

Apologies for going off topic Embarrassed


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Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:42am
Hmm... when we get to the end, I'll give it some more thought. But the first time I saw it, I thought the end lost it's way. I expected something better.


Posted By: Magic Man
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Herky Herky wrote:

The universe could have been different from the way that it is in many ways. It could have had different laws of physics; it could have had a different arrangement of planets and stars; it could have begun with a more powerful or a weaker big bang.
 
Irrelevant really since, whatever it was like or however it was arranged, if we were sitting here now reading this post or never existed, it wouldn't matter one bit.
 
Quote  
The vast majority of these possible universes would not have allowed for the existence of life, so we are very fortunate indeed to have a universe that does.
 
We evolved according to the conditions available. We may have evolved differently given different conditions.
If we hadn't evolved to the level required to ponder the argument or didn't exists at all then the argument is moot, therefore, is there an argument at all? Seems a bit Zen like to me...
 
We may also be a very insignificant part of the entire makeup of the universe. Making judgements on the existence of life according to certain conditions we believe to be true may be a little naive.



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