Birmingham Airport closed 'light aircraft crash
Printed From: Just Flight Forum
Category: Just Chat
Forum Name: Real World Aviation
Forum Description: For the discussion of real Aircraft, General Aviation and Flying
URL: http://forum.justflight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15615
Printed Date: 26 Apr 2024 at 4:04am
Topic: Birmingham Airport closed 'light aircraft crash
Posted By: MartinW
Subject: Birmingham Airport closed 'light aircraft crash
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 5:56pm
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Wow, my local airport, just a few miles away.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11799829 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11799829
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Replies:
Posted By: Edward Longe
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 5:58pm
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Read it just as I got in from College. Citation Jet apparently
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CAA= Cash Again,Again! |
Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 7:01pm
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Need to wait for the report - an eyewitness said it was on fire on approach, but they all say that...
Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 9:04pm
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The Manager of Birmingham Airports says that the aircraft was a Cessna Citation 501 executive jet, and that had been on a normal approach to the airport when it hit the ILS glideslope antenna, then crashed 300 ft to the right of the runway.
One was air-lifted to hospital, the other taken by ambulance. One is in critical condition. The question is: how did they get to hit the antenna? 
Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: GEOFFERS
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:12pm
 ------------- It's easy to make a small fortune in aviation. You start with a large fortune. |
Posted By: Edward Longe
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:17pm
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Edward's theory, LVP's were in operation at the time. The Citation was on final approach and lost the glideslope. Looking for the runway, the pilots strayed of the to the right of the runway. Clipped the antenna and it damaged the aircraft's fusalage and crashed. ----Theory over---- -------------
CAA= Cash Again,Again! |
Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 11:25pm
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Interesting theory.
Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: TomA320
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 8:53am
| I heard the aircraft was caring a lung ready to be transplanted, but fortunately no damage was done to it and the operation went ahead last night. |
Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 9:47am
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The question is: how did they get to hit the antenna?
Where abouts are the antenna's usually situated Pointy?
I believe they are off to one side aren't they? In which case Edwards theory seems about right.
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Posted By: VulcanB2
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 8:29pm
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The glide slope is to one side and situated about 300 ft from the threshold, abeam the TDZ.
If they were simply low looking for the lights, they should still have been on the extended center line, and at no risk of hitting it. The fact they were some distance to the side of the runway (over the grass) and at some altitude to hit the antenna, suggests they were doing something quite strange. Anyone know what the actual weather was at the time of the accident? Best regards, Vulcan. |
Posted By: Edward Longe
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 8:47pm
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The weather was foggy. The pilots must have attempted a go-around but for what ever reason failed to do so and clipped the antenna.
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CAA= Cash Again,Again! |
Posted By: GEOFFERS
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 9:06pm
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as time was a factor with a lung on the aircraft for transplant. a go-around or divert was out, the transplant was upper most in the pilots mind. it's not the 1st time. I'm afraid it will not be the last. ------------- It's easy to make a small fortune in aviation. You start with a large fortune. |
Posted By: Slopey
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 9:58pm
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This is all pure speculation - how do you know they attempted the go-around? And you don't attempt a go-around, you go missed at minima if you're not visual, end of story. This looks like press-on-itis.
Do, or do not, there is no try, as Master Yoda would say. All we know at the moment is that they hit the antenna on the way to the ground. What has emerged on other forums is that there was a thick bank of low fog over the threshold at the time of the approach - two aircraft came in before them and were off profile on the flare landing long. Again speculation - but it looks like they possibly lost visual contact with the runway just at the wrong point - why they *did'nt* go around, we don't know yet. But to say they tried a go-around is hogwash - if they had, they'd probably not have hit the deck! ------------- AirHauler Developer For AH2 queries - PLEASE USE THE EA Forums as the first port of call. |
Posted By: dodgy-alan
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 11:27pm
Whatever the cause I,ve no doubt a few of us have tried to replicate the approach by now in an effort to see what the situation looks like, I dont have a Citation on FS but a NA Sabreliner has a similar performance !!
------------- The light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train coming the other way ! |
Posted By: Hot_Charlie
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 11:47pm
Thankfully your theory may have been tried 50 or 60 years ago, but aviation is a little more professional these days.
Very true.
I doubt that would have been a major factor, particularly if the weather was as bad as it seems to be reported. They'd hopefully be thinking of safely completing the approach (be it with a landing, or if necessary a go-around) to a reasonably busy airport in poor weather - and most certainly going around if necessary for another go. At the end of the day, a liver 15 minutes late is better than a liver either stuck in the middle of a crashed aircraft, or worse still, incinerated in any fire. Yes, they would probably have conducted the flight in the most expedient manner possible, but you wouldn't be pushing either the rules or yourself on an approach.
Certainly a possibility - but that low? A modern glidepath aerial must only be 20ft high, maybe 30-40ft at a push. For their sakes you kind of hope that it turns out to be an aircraft malfunction, or perhaps more likely in this case - considering the weather - disorientation; possibly after over flying/correcting on the latter stages of the ILS...
Someone should tell him that isn't normal! Anyway, at least they're all ok, and the liver got where it was needed. 
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Posted By: dodgy-alan
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 11:51pm
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Anyway, at least they're all ok, and the liver got where it was needed. [/QUOTE]Well if the aircraft was on fire then the liver was probably nicely grilled, would go nice with some bacon, tomatoes , eggs, toast ........... ------------- The light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train coming the other way ! |
Posted By: Slopey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 12:24am
Current news reports of one critical, one less seriously injured. Unless the critical one has been downgraded, they're far from "all ok"! ------------- AirHauler Developer For AH2 queries - PLEASE USE THE EA Forums as the first port of call. |
Posted By: Hot_Charlie
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:14am
Ok, I'll rephrase... They are alive, and god willing, will recover.
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Posted By: Hot_Charlie
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:18am
I wouldn't be surprised if the container carrying the liver would be designed to "happily" withstand a more catastrophic incident, and possibly even a substantial fire.
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Posted By: GEOFFERS
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:23am
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Well if the aircraft was on fire then the liver was probably nicely grilled, would go nice with some bacon, tomatoes , eggs, toast [Quote] yuk don't like liver bacon, tomatoes , eggs, toast OK ------------- It's easy to make a small fortune in aviation. You start with a large fortune. |
Posted By: Herky
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 6:41pm
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Now with all this:
http://www.cessna.com/citation/citation-x/citation-x-avionics.html - http://www.cessna.com/citation/citation-x/citation-x-avionics.html
I am interested to know just what happened?
Regards
Herky. ------------- You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky |
Posted By: allardjd
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 4:03pm
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Liver Transplant Succeeds After Crash http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1777-full.html#203670 - http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1777-full.html#203670 The liver, however, was unscathed. So, while the whole-person casualties were looked after, a policeman scooped up the liver and put it on his motorcycle for the trip to the hospital, where it was pronounced healthy. About four hours later it was doing what livers do inside the patient, who was in stable condition at last report. ------------- John Allard |
Posted By: Herky
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:52pm
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Thanks John. Good to hear someting positive from this.
In the US I believe you aren't allowed below minima for an approach when flying commercial. In General Aviation it happens that sometimes there is a "go down for a look see"....... My speculation was going that route. It was just that with all those advanced avionics this airplane has, it is a wake up call that a pilot can be where he doesn't want to be and crashes. In spite of all the EGPWS!
Cheers.
Herky
------------- You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky |
Posted By: Rich
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:07pm
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We were walking from the NEC arena to our hotel when it happened. We saw a Dash 8 take-off just after 15:35, must have been the last movement before it happened. Alex commented how all flights seemed to have halted before we heard the news.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Just-Flight/15266573498" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: MartinW
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 10:04pm
| Very suspicious if you ask me, with Just flight in the locality. |
Posted By: Hot_Charlie
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 10:26pm
| Oddly enough, today's notams mentioned that Rwy 15's (ILS) glidepath was unavailable at Birmingham... |