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Basic problem with Traffic traffic file

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JohnG View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:13am
For the first time, today, I pulled apart the traffic file created by Traffic 2005, and there is a basic wrongness in there which I hadn't been aware of prior to this time.

Some years ago, in Project AI, I identified that traffic files for airline fleets had to be on the basis of one plane, one flightplan. This is because if you take one plane, and give it multiple daily flightplans, you end up with multiple examples of each airplane in the sim, and worse, the probability of multiple versions of the same plane at an airport. This is happening in Traffic 2005.

I am not aware of how widespread it is, but today I identified that there are four examples of the single Australian Air Express B727 parked at YMML when there should only be one example there.

This has happened because there are 12 flightplans for airplane PH-YDR in the traffic file, instead of just one.

If this is more wide spread than this example, then the whole basis for Traffic 2005 traffic files is unrealistic in a very unacceptable way.

I hope that this is an isolated incident, but if it isn't, I'm afraid that the value of Traffic 2005 just depreciated in my eyes.
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nickb84 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickb84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 10:53am
Interesting John,
 
Cant say that I have ever come across anything like this but then again I have always manually editited and taken care of my AI.
 
Affraid that I cannot  help at all but just curious...
 
When the duplicate aircraft is created is the original aicraft also in view (at the same airport or on the same route)?
Nick B

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JohnG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:03pm
I have 4 B727s of Australian Air express on the ground at YMML every morning. Australian Air express only has two planes, and all four have the same registration number.

This was one of the very basic problems we encountered and eliminated over 5 years ago in Project AI. It's disappointing to find it turning up again in a commercial product.

These are the Traffic 2005 flightplans in standard FSX format:

C#447,PH-ADR,5%,24h,IFR,
    03:40,07:37,320,F,3710,YSSY,
    09:15,13:12,320,F,3711,YBRM,
    14:50,18:47,320,F,3712,YSSY,
    22:05,02:02,320,F,3709,YBRM
AC#447,PH-ADR,54%,24h,IFR,
    02:36,04:10,320,F,8234,YPAG,
    05:19,06:53,320,F,8235,YSSY,
    08:02,09:36,320,F,8236,YPAG,
    10:45,12:19,320,F,8237,YSSY,
    14:28,16:02,320,F,8238,YPAG,
    18:27,20:01,320,F,8239,YSSY,
    21:10,22:44,320,F,8232,YPAG,
    23:53,01:27,320,F,8233,YSSY
AC#447,PH-ADR,1%,24h,IFR,
    01:56,02:52,320,F,8987,YMML,
    03:54,04:50,320,F,8988,YSSY,
    05:52,06:48,320,F,8989,YMML,
    07:50,08:46,320,F,8990,YSSY,
    09:48,10:44,320,F,8991,YMML,
    11:46,12:42,320,F,8992,YSSY,
    14:44,15:40,320,F,8993,YMML,
    17:02,17:58,320,F,8994,YSSY,
    20:00,20:56,320,F,8985,YMML,
    23:58,00:54,320,F,8986,YSSY
AC#447,PH-ADR,74%,24h,IFR,
    00:36,02:58,320,F,0556,YSSY,
    04:17,06:39,320,F,0557,YBCS,
    07:58,10:20,320,F,0558,YSSY,
    11:39,14:01,320,F,0559,YBCS,
    17:14,19:36,320,F,0560,YSSY,
    20:55,23:17,320,F,0555,YBCS
AC#447,PH-ADR,27%,24h,IFR,
    00:06,01:05,320,F,5649,YSSY,
    02:07,03:06,320,F,5650,YBBN,
    04:08,05:07,320,F,5651,YSSY,
    06:09,07:08,320,F,5652,YBBN,
    08:10,09:09,320,F,5653,YSSY,
    10:11,11:10,320,F,5654,YBBN,
    12:12,13:11,320,F,5655,YSSY,
    15:13,16:12,320,F,5656,YBBN,
    19:14,20:13,320,F,5657,YSSY,
    22:05,23:04,320,F,5648,YBBN
AC#447,PH-ADR,32%,24h,IFR,
    01:55,05:06,320,F,5800,YMML,
    06:35,09:46,320,F,5801,YPPH,
    11:15,14:26,320,F,5802,YMML,
    21:15,00:26,320,F,5799,YPPH
AC#447,PH-ADR,89%,24h,IFR,
    00:35,01:25,320,F,0421,YMML,
    02:25,03:15,320,F,0422,YMHB,
    04:15,05:05,320,F,0423,YMML,
    06:05,06:55,320,F,0424,YMHB,
    07:55,08:45,320,F,0425,YMML,
    09:45,10:35,320,F,0426,YMHB,
    11:35,12:25,320,F,0427,YMML,
    13:25,14:15,320,F,0428,YMHB,
    18:55,19:45,320,F,0429,YMML,
    22:45,23:35,320,F,0420,YMHB
AC#447,PH-ADR,47%,24h,IFR,
    01:05,01:38,320,F,1721,YMML,
    02:35,03:08,320,F,1722,YSWG,
    04:05,04:38,320,F,1723,YMML,
    05:35,06:08,320,F,1724,YSWG,
    07:05,07:38,320,F,1725,YMML,
    08:35,09:08,320,F,1726,YSWG,
    10:05,10:38,320,F,1727,YMML,
    11:35,12:08,320,F,1728,YSWG,
    18:05,18:38,320,F,1729,YMML,
    23:35,00:08,320,F,1720,YSWG
AC#447,PH-ADR,78%,24h,IFR,
    03:18,06:59,320,F,0088,YPDN,
    08:33,12:14,320,F,0089,YMML,
    16:48,20:29,320,F,0086,YPDN,
    22:03,01:44,320,F,0087,YMML
AC#447,PH-ADR,90%,24h,IFR,
    00:57,01:52,320,F,9167,YMML,
    02:54,03:49,320,F,9168,YSDU,
    04:51,05:46,320,F,9169,YMML,
    06:48,07:43,320,F,9170,YSDU,
    08:45,09:40,320,F,9171,YMML,
    10:42,11:37,320,F,9172,YSDU,
    12:39,13:34,320,F,9173,YMML,
    16:36,17:31,320,F,9174,YSDU,
    21:03,21:58,320,F,9175,YMML,
    23:00,23:55,320,F,9166,YSDU
AC#447,PH-ADR,64%,24h,IFR,
    02:12,04:26,320,F,9494,YMML,
    05:44,07:58,320,F,9495,YBAS,
    09:16,11:30,320,F,9496,YMML,
    12:48,15:02,320,F,9497,YBAS,
    19:08,21:22,320,F,9498,YMML,
    22:40,00:54,320,F,9493,YBAS
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nickb84 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickb84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:22pm
I am a little puzzeled,
 
There seem to be about 11 different sets of plans for that aircraft but it looks like they are set to repat the same schedule every 24hours?
Nick B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:59pm
Yep, that's how they are set up by Traffic 2005, and for anyone who knows about building flight plans, that is definitely a no-no. That's why the thread is titled as it is!

If it is like that throughout the traffic file generated by traffic 2005, it really IS a basic problem!

(basic as in fundamental, that is)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickb84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:05pm
So I presume then that if you went around all the airports at (for example) 09:00 you would count upto 11 aircraft?
Nick B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:25pm
That's about the size of it, yes - apart from any that were in the air at the time, of course.

I've taken it a bit firther, by importing the flight plans into Excel, and it works out that there are some 22486 flightplans involved in the airlines I am using (I don't use them all, and none of the private traffic VFR ones, where I'd expect 24 hour plans to be, are included), of which only 1528 are weekly flight plans.

And that, she said, was all. I was not aware that the designers were using this approach; I have never seen any review that suggests that they used this approach, and quite frankly, I am more than a little surprised that they would go down this path with their flight plans.

I don't know just what I am going to replace this package with, but from my point of view, it goes straight into the round filing cabinet tonight!

If all you want is to see planes at your airports, in the air, and parking at your terminals, and you really don't have much real experience with airplanes and airports, I'm sure that you will have no complaints with such a package. If you, like me, have run an AI site for 3 years, gone through the pains of securing quality standards, and KNOW what flightplans should look like, I'm afraid that this one isn't a "keeper".

And, no, I am no longer associated with Project AI (or any other traffic group pushing a free or payware product, and no, I don't think that I'll be repeating outside of this forum what I have just said here -I think that Just Flight don't deserve to be pilloried by the uneducated  and the geeks for this situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickb84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:26pm
So to get back to the orginal problem then what you are syaing that (if I understood correctly) is that a plane is being created in FS for each leg?
Nick B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:07am
For all those 24 hour flights, yes, and that is a problem that was identified about 5 years ago at Project AI. PAI was young, back then, and once the problem was recognised, we had to withdraw every old package that we'd made, and rework the flightplans. The abiding principle that we worked with was that there should be no more flightplans for an airline than the number (and type0 or planes in the airline's fleet.

For GA, and even military, it doesn't matter, because we would never push the bounds of the private fleet in any country, but with commercial carriers, a registration number should always only be in one place at one time. The MRAI people recognised that, the WoAI people recognise that. Even the UT people recognise that, but apparently whoever is behind traffic 2005 hasn't recognised that. A pity, really, because with proper, weekly flight plans for the airlines that they cover, they would have a great product here.

Well, that's my last word on this topic, so let's move on to other things.

Tell me, what does an actual Airbus pilot get out of FS9?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:49pm
As a user of Traffic I find this post very unusual. You are an expert in Traffic programming, yet you have bought a commercial traffic program for FS2004 that has veen updated to FSX and have joined the forum to start a debate about how poorly programmed it is. You are at pains to point out your good intentions and yet you drop plenty of hints about Project AI and other software. If Project AI is so good, why don't you start selling it - then maybe people like me would take this sort of criticism seriously?

I bought Traffic 2005 in my local PC World three years ago for 20 quid. It works fine and I even got a free update to FSX. IMHO it is the best traffic prgram around and is better supported by its developers than anything else.
 
Methinks the lady prostesteth too much ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 3:35am
Originally posted by Peter T Peter T wrote:

As a user of Traffic I find this post very unusual. You are an expert in Traffic programming, yet you have bought a commercial traffic program for FS2004 that has veen updated to FSX and have joined the forum to start a debate about how poorly programmed it is.


I have had Traffic 2005 installed for over 12 months, because although I do know my way around AI in FS, I have neither the time nor the inclination at this time to develop my own traffic again. PAI isn't really an option - they have too few current airlines, and their models really aren't up to working well in FSX. I have one little quirk - believe it or not - I won't buy off the web if I can help it, and Traffic 2005 was at least available in our local shops, where i could purchase a DVD copy to use. I had no reason not to purchase it, and laziness as a very good reason to purchase it, and get it running. After all, the packaging says that it is compatible with FSX.

Quote You are at pains to point out your good intentions and yet you drop plenty of hints about Project AI and other software. If Project AI is so good, why don't you start selling it - then maybe people like me would take this sort of criticism seriously?


Why would I want to sell anything? I'm not in the business of running a site any more. I came to these forums to try to find out whether there was any way to easily mod the config files to make the planes FULLY FSX compatible - that was what me earlier posts were about, and i have posted some material that may help to achieve that end - possibly already known, but possibly not. Project AI most certainly isn't the answer here and now - it's still, through no fault of its own, stuck in the FS9 world. I would certainly not suggest that for any FSX user.

Quote I bought Traffic 2005 in my local PC World three years ago for 20 quid. It works fine and I even got a free update to FSX. IMHO it is the best traffic prgram around and is better supported by its developers than anything else.


I purchased Traffic 2005 about 128 months ago from metroPC in Melbourne, for about $AU90, which is the going rate right now. It's not a bad product, and my posts in this thread are not to condemn it in any way, but hopefully to alert the developers by the only path I have to the need to change their way of constructing flight plans. It was intended to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and if it has been taken in any other way, I apologise unreservedly. I am not myself an AI nerd, needing today's real traffic and repaints today, and am quite happy with representative traffic, and i was trying to point out that having 4 versions or the one plane on the apron at the same time, is not representative of real world traffic, it is plainly (to me) a wrongness that needs to be discussed.

I'll go away now and leave you to your own devices. I'm sorry that I darkened your doorstep over this matter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 10:24am
Sorry to sound so touchy, but those of us with long enough memories will remember the time a couple of years ago when the Traffic forum was visited by 'new' members whose first post was a long and detailed ramble about how poorly programmed Traffic was in comparison to a particular freeware AI product. A quick visit to the forum of the  freeware product (many of us were members) showed the poster revealing his identity as a long-standing forum poster and announcing to the other forum members "I have been over to the JF forum again and made another post. They are all getting wound up - it is going great. etc. etc." I well remember Myrm (among others) getting involved in a heated debate, little realising the whole point was simply to wind the forum users up and drive users over to the other product's forum. I am sorry if I have taken your comments the wrong way but damming Traffic with faint praise by saying "...you really don't have much real experience with airplanes and airports, I'm sure that you will have no complaints with such a package... A pity, really... they would have a great product here... I'm afraid that this one isn't a "keeper"." sounds very much like a wind-up. 

I will end my post by saying something like "that's all there is to say about it" in an assumptive close that suggests what I have said is the definitive answer and also encouraging more debate. It's an old trick but it works every time.
 
That's all I (or anyone else) needs to say about the entire subject. Now, who has bought the Abacus A380 and what do you think of it?

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickb84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Peter T Peter T wrote:

I am sorry if I have taken your comments the wrong way................
 
Think you have and mis-understood that John was maybe offering his knowledge for better intentions than you have automatically assumed.
Nick B

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