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NASA EmDrive Paper Peer Reviewed

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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: NASA EmDrive Paper Peer Reviewed
    Posted: 22 Nov 2016 at 12:32pm
This may shock anyone familiar with Newton's third law!

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Expel jet thrust backward and the aircraft moves forward. Paddle water backward and the canoe moves forward. Well meet NASA's EmDrive, it expels nothing at all but according to NASA's extensive research, now peer reviewed, it still generates thrust. Not much thrust, but in a vacuum, carrying zero propellant, enough to be significant.

NASA's EmDrive is said to work by bouncing microwave photons around in a come shaped chamber. As the photons collide with the walls of the chamber they somehow propel the device forward. It's a bit like banging your fists against the steering wheel in your car and somehow expecting the car to move forward. It won't of course, but in a vacuum NASA say the EmDrive does.

Scientists of course have been beyond sceptical that such a drive could work, as it defies the known laws of physics, but that hasn't stopped several teams testing the idea. US, UK and European teams, not to mention DIY enthusiasts have conducted experiments but up until now no one has been able to prove the device works. 

Whats significant now through is that NASA's research is peer reviewed. Peer review doesn't of course guarantee that NASA's findings are valid, but it does tell us that several independent scientist's have looked at NASA's research and deemed it to be conducted correctly. It also tells us that NASA's experienced researchers are convinced it works. So convinced in fact that over the coming months, NASA will be testing the device in the vacuum of space.

The NASA Eagleworks Team seem to be convinced that the device somehow pushes against the quantum vacuum itself, against quantum vacuum virtual plasma. NASA suggest that Pilot Wave theory explains how the device achieves this.

This isn't like, for example, climate change, which has something like 1500 peer reviewed scientific papers to back it up, this is just one peer reviewed paper, so of course once other researchers attempt to replicate the results errors could be found. However, if it turns out to be valid, expect a trip to Mars in 70 days, outer reaches of the solar system in months!

http://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-official-nasa-s-peer-reviewed-em-drive-paper-has-finally-been-published






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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2016 at 12:37pm
The peer-reviewed paper...

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120



Quote

Pilot-wave theory is a slightly controversial interpretation of quantum mechanics.

It's pretty complicated stuff, but basically the currently accepted Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics states that particles do not have defined locations until they are observed.

Pilot-wave theory, on the other hand, suggests that particles do have precise positions at all times, but in order for this to be the case, the world must also be strange in other ways – which is why many physicists have dismissed the idea.

But in recent years, the pilot-wave theory has been increasing in popularity, and the NASA team suggests that it could help explain how the EM Drive produces thrust without appearing to propel anything in the other direction.

"If a medium is capable of supporting acoustic oscillations, this means that the internal constituents were capable of interacting and exchanging momentum," the team writes.

"If the vacuum is indeed mutable and degradable as was explored, then it might be possible to do/extract work on/from the vacuum, and thereby be possible to push off of the quantum vacuum and preserve the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hifly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 9:12am
Blimey Martin, I didn't understand a word of that.

Still, it's good to know that you are warm and vertical. Wink
Must Fly!
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 2:08pm
Big smile Just whacks a load of microwaves around in a big copper can basically.

Apparently the NASA team knocked it together in their dining hall, just to see if it would work. Of course they were shocked when it (apparently) did. So it's not optimised at all, very makeshift.

If this copper tin can is really doing what NASA think, then Newton was wrong, Einstein was wrong, Maxwell is wrong and actually quantum physics is wrong.

Most likely scenario is that NASA missed something, something conventional in the experiment that accounts for the thrust.

Interestingly though there have been several teams from around the world that have experienced similar results. 

Mouths around the world will be gaping if they find when they get it in space is actually works. The next few months will be very interesting. Roger Shawyer has been claiming for years it works. 

My view is that there's a miniscule chance it really does what they think. Having said that though, there's so much we don't understand, dark matter, dark energy etc. Basically its cleared it's first credibility hurdle, but more hurdles to negotiate.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/11/23/how-physics-falls-apart-if-the-emdrive-works/#2824c7fb4b0c



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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 2:38pm
And okay, get this.... they claim they may have accidentally created a warp bubble! 
ShockedBig smile

NASA researchers posted on a NASA space flight forum that when they fired lasers into the chamber, the photons appeared to travel faster than light. So they claim they may have created a warp bubble.

In fact, not just NASA, all three independent teams that experimented with this device  claim the math behind the "warp bubble" matches the interference pattern found in the EmDrive! The acceleration is consistent with the warped space seen in an Alcubierre Drive [warp drive]. Beam me up scotty! Big smile


Quote Repeated testing, with multiple versions of the EM Drive built by multiple independent sources, have all failed to prove that it is not generating the thrust reported by prior tests. Against all odds, the EM Drive’s abilities are seem to be holding up to scrutiny, and thus seemingly in contravention of the law that every action must have an equal and opposite reaction.


https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/227146-a-new-theory-of-inertia-could-explain-the-em-drives-anomalous-thrust

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During the first two weeks of April 2015, scientists fired lasers through the EmDrive's resonance chamber[clarification needed] and noticed highly significant variations in the path time. The readings indicated that some of the laser pulses traveled longer, possibly pointing to a slight warp bubble inside the resonance chamber of the device. However, a small rise in ambient air temperature inside the chamber was also recorded, which could possibly have caused the recorded fluctuation in speeds of the laser pulses. According to Paul March, a NASA JSC researcher, the experiment was to be verified inside a vacuum chamber to remove all interference of air. This was done at the end of April 2015.[14][15] White does not think, however, that the measured change in path length is due to transient air heating, because the visibility threshold is 40 times larger than the predicted effect from air.[citation needed]

The experiment used a short, cylindrical, aluminum resonant cavity excited at a natural frequency of 1.48 GHz with an input power of 30 watts, over 27000 cycles of data (each 1.5 s cycle energizing the system for 0.75 s and de-energizing it for 0.75 s), which were averaged to obtain a power spectrum that revealed a signal frequency of 0.65 Hz with amplitude clearly above system noise. Four additional tests were successfully conducted that demonstrated repeatability.[16]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%E2%80%93Juday_warp-field_interferometer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garyscott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 2:00pm
This was several years ago. It is "theoretically" possible, but those involved have been incredibly quiet about the costs involved in the A-drive.


Its not a flat fantasy, but its not in any way possible anytime soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 11:25am
A-Drive? Never heard of it.

Any more info, links? Smile

In regard to the EmDrive, it's most definitely not theoretically possible. Hence the numerous attempts to find something that the researchers have missed. If it does turn out to be valid, we will need to rewrite the text books. 

There have been a few attempts to explain how the EmDrive achieves the seemingly impossible.  Pilot Wave Theory, Unruh radiation and more recently, suggestions that it does actually have an exhaust, namely photons we can't detect. ..

Quote But a new paper, published in AIP Advances.  suggest the EmDrive produces an exhaust like every other rocket.


'EmDrive works just like any other engine,' Dr Arto Annila, physics professor at the University of Helsinki and lead author of the paper, told MailOnline.


'Its fuel is the input photons at microwave lengths.'

The researchers suggest the photons coming out of the machine interfere with each other, so that the overall effect seems as if nothing is there. 

'In the cavity the input photons will bounce back and forth, and invariably some of them will interfere completely destructively. Then the two photons will be exactly 180 degrees out phase. At the complete interference electromagnetic fields for the two photons will cancel exactly, but the photons themselves continue to propagate.'

The idea is the same as water waves travelling together, at the exact right time so that the crest of one wave is exactly at the trough of the other and cancelling each other out. 

The water does not go away, it's still there. In the same way the pairs of photons are still there and carrying momentum even though they cannot be seen as light. The paired photons without net electromagnetic field will escape from the cavity,' Dr Annila said. 'This efflux of paired photons is the exhaust of EmDrive.'

'When the cavity is asymmetric, like the tapered cone, the efflux of paired photons is also asymmetric. Therefore the loss of momentum carried by the paired photons is uneven. In other words, thrust is non-zero.'

Dr Annila came up with the idea along with Dr Erkki Kolehmainen, an organic chemistry professor at the University of Jyväskylä and Patrick Grahn, a multiphysicist at engineering software firm Comsol. 

'Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible,' the authors wrote in their. 'Yet, certain resonant cavities, when fueled with microwaves, deliver thrust without apparent exhaust.' 

Their theory suggest the exhaust produced by the EmDrive is there, but just cannot be seen. 

Dr Annila said the photons could theoretically be detected by an interferometer, the same instrument used to detect gravitational waves.

'My gut feeling is that it will be very difficult to detect such a small excess in energy density, especially when operating EmDrive steadily,' he said.

'Namely changes are more amenable to detection in any case. But still our idea about the exhaust can be useful to design the cavity for pairing photons better for an exit in a preferred direction, and hence to generate more thrust.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3644747/Does-Nasa-s-fuel-free-thruster-invisible-exhaust-New-theory-explain-EmDrive-man-Mars-10-weeks.html




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garyscott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:38pm
Meant as following on from your post regards the Alcubierre drive tech. There was an (unverified) period of what, for all intents and purposes, was a short period during testing of EMdrive theory on a development "item", of what bears the expected hallmarks of A-drive initialisation.
Regretably, or maybe just hushed up, the test has not been repeated.

That is public domain anyway . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2016 at 3:12pm
Oh right, sorry, not heard of Alcubierre's speculative warp drive idea referred to as an A-Drive before, warp drive yes. 

It was actually April 2015. Since then, Shawyer himself has stated that the device has nothing to do with warp drive. And n fact he claims in the video below that it does indeed comply with Newton's third law. He tells us EmDrive IS based on classic physics, the theories of  Maxwell, Newton and Einstein. Others obviously disagree.











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2016 at 8:13pm
Hi All,

This is pretty cool stuff, scientists realising they know next to nothing about reality.  I hope this experiment works in space as I remember reading about this a few years ago in a NASA engineering forum.  Could this have something to do with non zero energy in quantum systems?  That's my bet Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 5:19pm
This is pretty cool stuff, scientists realising they know next to nothing about reality.

Except that the most likely scenario Mark, is that they have indeed missed something. 

Shawyer himself tells us that there's no physics defying stuff going on at all. He seems to think Newton's third law isn't violated at all, in fact relies on it. [See video]. Quite clear that no one else believes that though.

It will be fantastic if it all pans out in space, but I certainly wont be betting any dosh. 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 6:18pm
"Except that the most likely scenario Mark, is that they have indeed missed something". 

Hi Martin, Hope you and yours are well.

Yep, they have missed something truly fundamental, which is why I said they know next to nothing.  This isn't a bad thing, but a case of the more we learn the more we realise we don't know.  Physics and science in general is strewn with this problem.

Science's aim is to explain the why's!  Everything else are just place holders until more understanding and discovery happens, science currently doesn't answer many why's unfortunately.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 11:30am
No Mark I meant in terms of an experimental error. In terms of a conventional explanation for the effect detected.

It's very unlikely that they've discovered anything new... but lets hope so.

There are lots of ways they could have inadvertently messed up. Thermal expansion of the device could account for the results. They haven't eliminated all possible sources of error.

As you know, peer review just means that the methodology seemed reasonable to those that reviewed it... not that the results are valid.

Most of the scientists that have looked at this are sceptical, we should be too. Newton, Maxwell and Einstein have been proven correct many times, it's likely they are still correct.

Shawyer claims it doesn't defy Newton Einstein and Maxwell of course and says it works as follows... Electromagnetic waves have no mass, but do have momentum, that momentum is transferred to the reflecting surfaces and produces a force called radiation pressure... 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 2:11pm
This is a really fascinating video, where Shawyer explains the history of the drives development. The idea originally spawned from a Royal Institute Christmas lecture in the 70's by Eric Laithwaite, concerning gyroscopes. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite


I actually watched that very lecture on TV and was fascinated by Laithwaite's theories. Whether he's right or wrong, Shawyer fascinates me, just as Laithwaite did back in the 70's.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Christopher Low Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 9:57pm
How can anything with no mass have momentum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Christopher Low Christopher Low wrote:

How can anything with no mass have momentum?

It's a while since I looked at this and Mark will probably have a better explanation, but the answer is...

Because it travels at the speed of light!

A photon has no rest mass, but still has momentum. It's been experimentally verified. It must travel at precisely light speed to have momentum.

It has been theorised that this is going on with the Shawyer device. Namely that photons are emitted, and that's actually the exhaust....

Quote "So how could something come out that you can't detect? Well, the photons bounce back and forth inside the metal cavity, and some of them end up going together in the same direction with the same speed, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Invariably, when travelling together in this out-of-phase configuration, they cancel each other's electromagnetic field out completely.

"That's the same as water waves travelling together so that the crest of one wave is exactly at the trough of the other and cancelling each other out. The water does not go away, it's still there, in the same way the pairs of photons are still there and carrying momentum even though you can't see them as light.

"If you don't have electromagnetic properties on the waves as they have cancelled each other out, then they don't reflect from the cavity walls anymore. Instead they leak out of the cavity. So we have an exhaust – the photons are leaking out pair-wise."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-finnish-physicist-says-controversial-space-propulsion-device-does-have-exhaust-1565673



 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 10:22pm
How can anything with no mass have momentum?

In classical physics it's a bloody good point Chris, but in relativistic physics (special relativity in this case) Einstein postulated that energy and mass are the same thing (mass-energy equivalence), just measured in different units.  The energy of a photon is treated the same as mass, and you can multiply energy and velocity to calculate a photons momentum.  Photons have mass inversely proportional to their wavelength and have relativistic mass proportional to their momentum.  Looking at photons in this way explains why they are effected by gravity and bend around large masses like the sun.  The mass is expresses simply as energy.

You can also think of the mass of a photon in a different way, as 'rest mass' or 'invariant mass'.  This has more to do with general relativity and is termed invariant mass because it is unchanging regardless of the observers point of view (for example, if an observer says the 'photon is at rest or is moving').  As a photon for every observer always moves at the speed of light in a single direction, the maths shows that the mass for a photon must be zero as Martin stated above.  Think of it as all the mass of the photon is expressed as energy that enables it to travel at light speed. Looking at it in this way, photons curve around the sun because they are travelling the straightest line in curved space. 

Of course, this may all be total balls Wink

Cheers,
M. 



 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2016 at 12:26pm
Interesting development...

It's been suggested that Boeing's top secret spy plane, the X37, is already testing an EmDrive. Would kind of make sense given that Boeing were about to sighn a deal with Shawyer but mysteriously they dropped out without a word. Almost as if they decided it was a valid idea and developed their own instead.


Quote  

IBTimes UK has been informed that the US Air Force is currently testing out a version of the EmDrive electromagnetic microwave thruster on the X-37B unmanned military space plane, while the Chinese government has made sure to include the EmDrive on its orbital space laboratory Tiangong-2.


The X-37B has been circling the Earth on a top-secret mission ever since it was launched by the US Air Force on 20 May 2015, and no one knows what exactly it is monitoring or when it will return.

All we know is that the current robotic spacecraft in orbit – the OTV-4 – is solar-powered and carries a large experiment bay taking up about a third of the space plane. This is where the US Air Force installs sensors and experimental technologies it wants to test out. If the US Air Force is testing out the EmDrive, this would make sense as the US military maintains that the X-37B is being used to "explore reusable space vehicle technologies in support of long-term objectives".

In the meantime Roger Shawyer is patenting a new EmDrive thruster that features a single flat superconducting plate on one end, while the other end is a unique shaped plate that is non-superconducting.

He plans to manufacture thousands of the devices as part of his joint venture with UK aerospace firm Gilo Industries Group, and hopes that the EmDrive can be used to reduce the cost and time to space, as well as powering flying cars and helping to solve the global energy crisis.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289




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