God and Physics |
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Odai 
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: NW England Points: 3731 |
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 Posted: 15 Apr 2008 at 6:04pm |
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Of course not man. Why is it implausible? Now that IS subjective. (I like this new word.)
If a being was independent form the laws of physics, they would be our laws that it was independent of, but there would still be fundamental laws that governed his reality. So who created him and his reality??? Another god in another reality perhaps Odai, add infinatum. You could go on like that forever. There is a much simpler explanation... he doesn’t exist, after all there is no proof, and if there is no proof then it's a invented concept. It looks like you misunderstood me. I meant everything, including the fundamental laws. Totally independent, not bound by anything, or the product of anything. Some wierd, bizarre 'reality'.
That explains magic in our world, but, as I said just above this, the reality that god could exist in does not obey these fundamental rules.
Not totally blind, "religion" uses the amazing things we see in our universe to argue for the opinion that God exists.
You're just condescending full stop.
You're rubbish!
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 2008 at 8:57pm |
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No it's not subjective at all. If you believe in the existence of a god without any solid evidence to back up your claim, then that is a product of your own 'faith' your own mind... therefore it's a subjective concept as opposed to an objective reality that can be proven by the majority.
I know what you meant, but that concept is invalid. A reality that is not the product of, or bound by any fundamental laws would exist in no reality at all, it would not have a realm to exist in therefore it could not exist itself. For something to exist it must have an environment to exist in. if there is no environment then there is no entity within that environment. And if an environment does exist then by definition it must have rules that govern it's existence. Nothing can exist in nothingness.
Exactly! 'ARGUE' and 'OPINION' not prove, no evidence, no objective data that the majority can agree points to an undeniable or even highly plausible fact. It's that word again Odai... subjective. For proof we need objective reality not pure invention. The belief in a god is something you feel, no different to feeling that anything is a reality. We actually live in a ‘matrix’ created by intelligent machines, I can’t prove it of course but I have faith. Doesn’t make it true does it Odai, you can believe anything you like, whether it’s true or not is another matter. |
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VulcanB2
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 2008 at 9:32pm |
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I think so, too! They even made a 3-part documentary about the war between man and machine! Oh, wait... Best regards, Vulcan. |
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Odai
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: NW England Points: 3731 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 2008 at 6:46pm |
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What I meant was your opinion that the existence of a God is highly implausible. Immediately, the existence of God is very apparent (I guess depending on your perspective), looking at the universe around us. It's only when you begin to think deeply about it you begin to question this. So yes, I think saying it's highly implausible is an exaggeration.
Only because that is how it is here. We cannot imagine what is like to 'exist' in a reality I described. That is the prime belief in religion, the manner in which God exists. We are so absolved in the universe in which we live, it becomes almost impossible for us to believe how God could exist. So yes, it could be possible that God exists in "nothingness" (whatever that may be). It is simply impossible to properly comprehend for us, we can't imagine nothing.
I'm afraid we do have evidence Martin, whether that is objective enough is obviously debatable. It probably isn't of course. Most people do not bother thinking like us, they look around them and conclude there must be a creator. However, obviously, for you and me this is not enough. There is however something else we can look at. It's what we're talking about here.
I think you can probably guess what I'll say to that once you've read this post.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 2008 at 7:25pm |
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I think saying it's highly implausible is an exaggeration Odai, how can the belief in a being that suddenly decided to create the entire universe with magic powers be plausible? It's a belief that stems from ignorance of the way we know the universe to function. Even if a god does exist, the possibility is still very very implausible, only from the standpoint of zero logic could anyone argue otherwise. So yes, it could be possible that God exists in "nothingness No that's totally illogical. Nothingness is precisely that absolutely nothing, no energy, no matter not even a 'realm' at all. Only nothing can exist in nothingness. I'm afraid we do have evidence Martin Show me your evidence. |
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Odai
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Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:43am |
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Yes, for most people, I totally agree with you. However, it's still a plausible belief when you think about it.
We have awesome theories of how the universe was created, but what set this into place? You can't go on and on forever saying an infinite chain of "events" created the universe. (Infact, that is probably the exact same as saying there is a creator.) Eventually we will reach a point where the only plausible explanation is that whatever started the universe off was "spontaneously created".
Of course it's totally illogical, we can't understand the idea. Otherwise, everybody would believe in a god.
Look around you. It may not be proof, but at least it's evidence.
 I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to this, I have very limited time, long posts aren't as easy anymore.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
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Posted: 01 May 2008 at 12:17pm |
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Eventually we will reach a point where the only plausible explanation is that whatever started the universe off was "spontaneously created".
No, not if the underlying structure of the multi-verse, [higher dimensional space] or a reality beneath that is constant, always there, always has been.
You cling to the 'someone must have created it' mind-set. That is thinking about the concept in human terms. A creator isn't necessary for something that has always been there.
"spontaneously created", doesn't have to be "spontaneously created" by a being, could be "spontaneously created" by natural means. In which case quantum fluctuations, or whatever the initial spark was , is your god.
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Odai
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 3:19pm |
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I think I'm not coming across very clearly. What I meant by the universe is not just existence confined to the universe we live in, but all of reality and existence, including the underlying structure you mentioned.
How did it happen to come into existence then? Surely what you believe is almost exactly the same as believing in a creator (god)? It certainly throws the common argument of "who created god etc" out the window (I'm not saying you believe this).
What you say would mean the creator in this case (the "quantum fluctuations") would be limited in what it is, ie, only a creator. You think this is possible?
Maybe this spark is a product of the existence of a God.
I think we are hitting dead ends here, there, and everywhere in this. There seems to be one fundamental thing we don't agree on.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 9:11am |
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What I meant by the universe is not just existence confined to the universe we live in
but all of reality and existence, including the underlying structure you mentioned.
Quantum theory suggests that something, can occur from absolutely nothing. Nothing is a difficult concept for humans to comprehend, but it does mean absolutely and totally nothing. But from where? Perhaps originating from another realm. But then how was that realm created? And on, and on ad infinitum.
The problem is Odai, you are attempting to answer questions that no scientist on the planet can answer. Quite simply we don't know.
The amazing thing is that the human mind is capable of understanding the aspects of the universe we have uncovered so far. There are a handful of questions still to be answered, questions that will result in entirely new fields of research. It may be that they too open a can of worms.
It may be that the complexity of the universe [and beyond] is so complex that we simply don't have the cerebral capacity to work out all of the answers.
Which is precisely why I am NOT an atheist. We will never be able to 'prove' that god doesn't exist. After each layer we uncover, dissect and understand, there may be another layer to baffle us.
And yet, at the back of my mind, I suspect that the human talent for simplification, the ability to see things in such a way that we can understand will win through. If a concept is understood in a simplistic way, adapted to our inadequacies, maybe we will understand all there is to know.
Agnosticism is the only logical way in my view, to believe whole heartedly is illogical and to NOT believe wholeheartedly is illogical.
Something to ponder... Perhaps there is a god and he's a Boltzmann brain!!!
 But as you say... who created his reality? And on, and on, ad infinitum.
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VulcanB2
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 12:07am |
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...or maybe we really are just living in The Matrix?
 Best regards, Vulcan. |
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MartinW
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 8:50am |
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Amazing isn't it, a science fiction writer comes up with a great idea for a plot and now even one or two scientists suggest the possibility that we really do live in a 'matrix'.
Some how I doubt it.
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wisemanp
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Gloucestershire Points: 1087 |
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 11:43am |
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I can use the 4 pages of this topic as revision for my Religious Studies short course GCSE exam on Wednesday
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Regards, Phil
You'll Never Walk Alone |
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MartinW
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 3:40pm |
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It is our copyright you know!
I charge £100 don't know about the others
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wisemanp
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 10:51pm |
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Okay. If I use it privately though, for my own personal revision, there is no problem with copyright?
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Regards, Phil
You'll Never Walk Alone |
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VulcanB2
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 10:59pm |
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Hi,
I reserve ALL rights to my posts. The fee per word used is £50, and for the overall works (defined as a single post), I charge an additional £1000. Cheques can be mailed to me in the Cayman Islands. I'm the house with the scale replica Vulcan on the beach.  Best regards, Vulcan. |
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Odai
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 3:58pm |
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As I said before, maybe that is why a belief in a god is called "faith".
Not really a reality, just God. I know, it sounds totally bizarre, but only because we are human (well, you are at least
 ) and it is impossible to comprehend.Martin, I think we've showed that it is virtually impossible to find what god may be, or if "he" exists. But I think if there is anything we agree on, it's the idea that God is far, far from what we would normally think of "him" as being, in human terms.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 4:08pm |
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As I said before, maybe that is why a belief in a god is called "faith".
Faith or not... it doesn't mean it's true. I have faith in the fairies, doesn't mean they are real.
In the words of Albert Einstein...
"The word 'god' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless childish."
Albert Einstein in a letter written in 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind. The item is due to be auctioned in London this week and could fetch £8000.
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zenandzen
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Joined: 19 May 2008 Location: Australia Points: 23 |
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Posted: 24 May 2008 at 8:01am |
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I think it was Dave Allen that said .......
"thank God I'm an atheist" Gerry |
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md11nlm
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Posted: 07 Jun 2008 at 1:41am |
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Some of the questions that clerics, theologists and other great scholars have come up with interesting questions for God, one particularly stands out.
Is it true that you created the universe, earth all in six days? "No," he responds, "I thought about it for five days and created everything on the sixth, after upon the seventh day, I feel it prudent to take the day off....." To be sure, I am not a atheist, however Religion in my book means an organization and projects its interpretation of his best seller, the bible. Interestingly enough, if one were to read the Koran, the Hebrew Bible and the King James version (obviously intended for the Christian faith) we would discover that all three books do not differ as much as we would believe. One friend of mine, who speaks about 7-8 languages which includes Arabic, cannot find anywhere in the Koran about killing Jews or Christians. Obviously Islam, especially fanatics do interpret this concept. I do not attend church, I have read the bible, and my church is in my heart. And that ladies and gentlemen, is my belief. |
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Peter,
American Airlines, the businessmen Airline circa 1980 KPIE & Tampa,FL RR station. Favorites: St. Kitts, W.I. and Union Station Chicago, IL |
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MartinW
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Posted: 07 Jun 2008 at 9:19am |
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Interestingly enough, if one were to read the Koran, the Hebrew Bible and the King James version (obviously intended for the Christian faith) we would discover that all three books do not differ as much as we would believe.
Very true, it's sad that the basics of most faiths, are fundamentally the same, and yet many among us aren't content with that fact. Instead they struggle relentlessly to force their interpretation on others.
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Then you have to believe that the implausible concept [gods existence] is highly implausible and extremely likely to be untrue.