Lockerbie Disaster | | Bomber to be Released ! |
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Flightboy
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Essex, UK Points: 7396 |
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Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 3:29am |
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I ment "does he really" as in the fact he wants to go home and die with his family, sadly that wasnt a option his victims were given and so i was not arguing if he has cancer or not his entitlements to compassionate release under UK law He is entilted to apply for release on that grounds, the law also says the decision they will make is based on a individual basis, mass murder is his crime and should keep him in jail to die Flightboy |
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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Being found guilty, and actually being guilty are two different things, however yes you are correct.
Oh come on. He's been diagnosed, by doctors - there's going to be quite a few people involved including several senior oncologists I'd imagine to confirm the diagnosis. This isn't some two-bit country - the medical fraternity have pride in their profession. No diagnosis from a doctor, no release - that simple - so yes, he does have cancer.
Pity is irrelevant, what is are his entitlements to compassionate release under UK law. |
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Flightboy
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Essex, UK Points: 7396 |
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But he is guilty, hense why he has been in prison all this time, if there was real proof of his innocence he would be out by now, speculation and talk of others being involved is just that, the evidence proved him to be guilty in the eyes of the law
"He is sick. He has cancer. There is no cure for his case. He told me that he wants to die among his family and friends in his country," said Abdel Atti el-Ubaidi. "Al-Megrahi said that he is ready to drop the appeal if he is guaranteed that he will be transferred to Libya." Does he reallly? im pretty sure the 270 people he killed would have liked that as well. You can live for years with prostate cancer and your have to forgive me when i say i have zero pity for him dying a slow death Flightboy |
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Again, there are serious doubts that this guy was actually involved, but as is the situation with Governments all kinds of dodgy deals go on, and the truth soon gets lost.
Best regards, Vulcan. |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Ronnie biggs got life and he wasnt a major asset. He was part of the criminal gang though, involved in the crime, playing an active role, that's different to someone simply being aware of an impending crime. You can't condemn someone to the maximum penalty, just because they knew a crime was about to be committed but had no involvement themselves. A person with knowledge of an impending crime has, in many jurisdictions, a legal obligation to report it but failing to do so does not result in the same penalty as the perpetrator. If he was part of a terrorist cell that plotted the destruction of the jet, playing an active role, then he would be culpable, but the suggestion is that he is merely an innocent scapegoat, not culpable at all.
Using your example...
Okay then Martin. You are not involved in, but have reason to beleive that (god forbid) a school child is about to be killed.
In which case a penalty for not reporting an impending crime would be issued, but not life in prison for murder. Unless the person not reporting the crime, was also complicit in the crime. |
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737Chris
Chief Pilot Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Location: The Abyss Points: 2247 |
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Ronnie biggs got life and he wasnt a major asset. Reading my previous post and your post again, Ive realised that the first part you are perfectly correct because I said "reason to beleive" If you knew it was to happen, surely you would have to tell the authorities ? I think you have more life experiance about these kind of things so ill try and calm down next time ! OOH and the post thing was a joke |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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The fact is, that he was tried and convicted. Innocent or not, he has the same rights for compassionate release as any other prisoner, in-line with the law.
Spot on Slopey.
As for the decision to drop his appeal, we can speculate that the authorities fear revisiting the case as it would reveal the dubious nature of the courts findings.
Somebody probably uttered... 'Drop your appeal and you get compassionate release.'
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Okay then Martin. You are not involved in, but have reason to believe that (god forbid) a school child is about to be killed. You would say something to the authorities, not leave it. Not doing so would make you just as guilty because you could intervene and save a life.
Actually no, of course not. You wouldn't be just as guilty, that is silly. Comparing an act of 'cold blooded murder' to 'not telling the authorities' and administering an 'equal' punishment is nuts. On that basis there would be no graduated penalties, we would all get the same severe punishment.
Laws already exist for such eventualities and the penalties are graduated.
Secondly if you WERE involved (but not heavily, just a minor asset) you should STILL get just as long for contributing / aiding in such an horrific act
Of course not, the law doesn't work that way and never has.
Your reactions to posting in the wrong forum are overreactions. . . .
Err, no, just doing my job Chris, the job I was asked to do.
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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I don't know if he's innocent or not. It looks fishy to me, and I'd be interested to see if his counsel bring anything new to the table and if that's made public or not. The fact is, that he was tried and convicted. Innocent or not, he has the same rights for compassionate release as any other prisoner, in-line with the law. Whether he should have been there or not, is a different topic. |
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737Chris
Chief Pilot Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Location: The Abyss Points: 2247 |
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(As always. . .hoping not to fall out with anyone)
""So if he just happened to suspect that 'maybe' there was a bombing afoot, he should spend his life in jail, and stay there despite suffering terminal cancer? I see, measured response that then isn't it?"" Okay then Martin. You are not involved in, but have reason to beleive that (god forbid) a school child is about to be killed. You would say something to the authorities, not leave it. Not doing so would make you just as guilty because you could intervine and save a life. Secondly if you WERE involved (but not heavily, just a minor asset) you should STILL get just as long for contributing / aiding in such an horrific act ""ANY suspicion that a man is innocent, should be studied most
carefully, for to incarcerate the innocent for their entire life
unjustly is abhorrent. Thank god he wasn't put to death.""
I cant disagree with that
""What you find hard to believe is irrelevant, the facts are relevant, not your subjective opinion and gross, highly emotive overreaction."" I didnt say it was relevant Your reactions to posting in the wrong forum are overreactions. . . . Im glad you used the word naively, I have embarrasingly always thought it was spelled with a "K". . . . . oh dear oh dear. |
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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...the thing with this case is that this guy is likely NOT guilty.
I'm struggling to figure out where you sit with this - if the guy is innocent, so what if a jury found him guilty? They potentially put an innocent man in jail. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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Something stinks about the whole thing.
I find it hard to believe that if it was state sponsored as is alleged, they would have been so sloppy as to get caught, in which case there's a high chance this chap is a stitched up stooge. Also, suddenly dropping the appeal when he's be adamant about proving his innocence is just not right. Doesn't make sense. Finally, this country seems to be heading towards justice by the vox populi. There are laws and rules which dictate the tariff for sentencing, the availability of parole, and yes, compassionate release etc. The move towards "trial by Sun/Mirror" is the slippery slope imho, and it seems crass to ask the victims family what they think of it - they (with some notable and very sensible exceptions) will universally agree that they should throw away the key, regardless of their entitlements under the law. He was found guilty, of a heinous crime by a jury of his peers, for which he was sentenced, and is now terminally ill. If release on compassionate grounds is provided for by law then that is entirely proper. I don't see anyone complaining about Ronnie Biggs being released..... (Convicted by his peers, escaped, lived it up abroad for years, then came back, terminally ill, and he's now a folk hero...) |
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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One word: politics. Last week, a Scottish MSP visited him in jail. Today, he is dropping his appeal against his conviction. THey are now looking seriously into why the MSP visited, what was said, why this guy suddenly decided not to challenge his conviction, and the situation related to his being released on compasionate grounds. I call BS, BS, and more BS. At least one Scottish MSP is complicit in this affair, and when you look at the history of the time when this all happened (1988) it all looks very dodgy indeed for these guys. July 3rd, 1988 - Iran Air Flight 665 is shot down by the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 December 21st, 1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 is blown up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103#Claims_of_responsibility Best regards, Vulcan. |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Anybody even SLIGHTLY in the know with this plot deserve to spend life in jail.
So if he just happened to suspect that 'maybe' there was a bombing afoot, he should spend his life in jail, and stay there despite suffering terminal cancer? I see, measured response that then isn't it?
ANY suspicion that a man is innocent, should be studied most carefully, for to incarcerate the innocent for their entire life unjustly is abhorrent. Thank god he wasn't put to death.
I really find it hard to beleive this man is completely innocent.
What you find hard to believe is irrelevant, the facts are relevant, not your subjective opinion and gross, highly emotive overreaction.
Over emotional sweeping statements naively based on inaccurate knowledge and supposition are never a good idea.
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Hot_Charlie
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 1839 |
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And the small matter that he was effectively state sponsored. Of course his sponsor's our "friend" nowadays... |
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737Chris
Chief Pilot Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Location: The Abyss Points: 2247 |
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fair point Vulcan&Martin however, I find it hard to beleive that this man is not related to it what so ever. Anybody even SLIGHTLY in the know with this plot deserve to spend life in jail. I really find it hard to beleive this man is completely innocent. |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Continue to ignore the fact that he may well be innocent, that the evidence against him was probably fabricated, that there were no less than SIX grounds for miscaraige... But I strongly suggest you drop the 'he deserves it' aspect of the debate. He may well not deserve it.
Extreme feelings are a bit pointless when there is evidence that he may be an innocent man.
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TomA320
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Perth Scotland Points: 10235 |
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Regardless of how many people he killed wishing or saying someone deserves cancer is beyond words
I suppose some people will argue 'what goes around comes around.'
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ConcordeGuy
Chief Pilot Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: Peterborough UK Points: 3734 |
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He is the convicted, what else do we rely on to throw monkey faeces at?
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Hold on a second chaps, you should listen to Vulcan before you make such extreme comments. Pointy is absolutely right, it is believed by many that it was a gross miscarriage of justice, and that he was merely a convenient scapegoat, and that the true culprits are still at large. And this is NOT another conspiracy theory. There is very good evidence that he may well have been innocent. He was a Libyan security agent possibly set up to take the blame. There were SIX grounds for possible miscarriage of justice. We have to be careful before we blurt such comments. |
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