A law within a law |
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GBL 
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Location: Hassocks. UK Points: 740 |
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 Topic: A law within a lawPosted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:04am |
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Now this is gettig silly. It should be UK courts only and our countries law. What other country would put up with this. |
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Aircraft Engines are the sound of Freedom.
ART |
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Martyn
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Development Manager Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Huntingdon, UK Points: 7615 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:09am |
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Disgraceful. Should absolutely be cracked down on and forbidden. People come to this country from many of the Muslim countries to avoid these extremely backwards laws I am a fan of multi-culturalism but anyone entering the UK needs to abide by our laws |
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Martyn
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Odai
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: NW England Points: 3731 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:03pm |
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Actually, why not?
The laws apply only to Muslims (who want them), and not to non-Muslims, so it doesn't affect them. I do not see any logical reason to disagree with it to be honest...
I think that's completely unjustified. Where did you get that idea from? And how is Sharia extremely backward?
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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VulcanB2
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:18pm |
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Umm guys there is a bigger issue here. If I declared that within my house an entirely different set of laws applied (e.g. taking heroin and having a 5 kg stash was perfectly OK) I'd still be busted under UK law.
...so how is this any different to the way Sharia law is being applied??????? IF THEY BREAK UK LAW, PROSECUTE UNDER UK LAW. Running a parallel legal system must NOT be tolerated!!!! If Muslims are doing it today, others will want it tomorrow. IT MUST BE STOPPED. YOU ARE HERE IN THE UK THEREFORE UK LAWS APPLY. IF YOU WANT SHARIA LAW - GO WHERE THAT APPLIES. That said, I have no problem with you voluntarily living by Sharia law as long as what you do is within UK law, and is not a replacement of it. e.g. If another law stated that you must go to bed at 1800 and get up at 0600, and this is what you wish to do, then that is fine as it is not infringing UK law, or replacing it. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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twright
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: London UK Points: 3303 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:23pm |
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Quite right.
I don't even think we should have mosques over here...
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Kind regards,
Tom |
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Odai
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Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 11:44pm |
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Hang on though, that completely contradicts your argument. Sharia is often more strict than traditional UK law. As a result, following Sharia would mean there would be no infringement on UK law. Alcohol is prohibited in Islam (it isn't under UK law). But not drinking alcohol (in accordance with Sharia) is not against UK law is it?
Likewise, under Sharia, Hijab should be worn by women. It's not required under UK law, but it doesn't go against it does it? Hijab is not illegal as far as I am aware.
If Muslims follow Sharia law, then they are not going against UK law. So what is the problem? Besides, under Islam, Muslims must respect the customs/laws of a society in which they are living when the majority is non-Muslim, so this will be taken into consideration.
I really, really do not see any problem whatsoever.
BTW, isn't there a parallel system of law that applies to Jews in the UK?
That's one of the most silly things I've read here, to say the least.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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Magic Man
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 12:14am |
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If a certain section of this country wish to live by certain rules - and they are rules rather than laws with respect to this country - then I have no issues with it as long as those rules do not contravene any UK law.
What are the 'punishments' for breaking some of these rules? Do those punishments themselves break any UK laws...?
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icudan
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Suspended Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Location: Willenhall, UK Points: 1909 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 12:47am |
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I don't really want to get involved in this debate about how
 up this country is getting, Islamic laws have no place here, this is a Christian nation, if i asked for this in a Muslim country i would probably be kidnapped, beheaded and the video posted on the internet by now. These laws just go to show how low the UK is sinking, i feel sick knowing that this is happening in our country. Also i agree with twright, i mosques have pretty much ruined Bradford and Blackburn.I beleive we should ban the Burka aswell! Well played Sarkozy! |
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GBL
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Location: Hassocks. UK Points: 740 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 12:57am |
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Sinister comes to mind.
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"This is not a matter of eating halal meat or seeking God's blessing on one's marriage. It is a challenge to what we believe to be the rights and freedoms of the individual, to our concept of a legal system based on what parliament enacts, and to the right of all of us to live in a society as free as possible from ethnic-religious division or communal claims to superiority and a special status that puts them in some respects above the law to which we are all bound."
(Another snippet says a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim unless he converts to Islam and the removal of a wifes proprty rights in the event of divorce:)
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"Among the examples quoted are laws banning a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim unless he converts to Islam and the removal of a wife's property rights in the event of divorce. "
I thought this was meant to be a free country and that does'nt mean every religion having their own kangaroo courts. The IRA had their own courts and look what happened if you were found guilty there !!
Does Anachy come to mind
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Aircraft Engines are the sound of Freedom.
ART |
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Odai
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: NW England Points: 3731 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 2:55am |
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I'm afraid it's no where near as simple as that. Crime and punishment is an incredibly complex thing, you're best researching it yourself.
The only thing that comes to mind though is the idea that capital punishment is permissible in Islam in certain circumstances. This is obviously not accommodated under current UK law. So it would simply not apply.
I really expected nothing more from you than the usual drivel you post. It's sad, up until the point you posted this it was looking like a reasonable debate. Maybe the mods from now on should keep an eye out for this rubbish and take it out. It has no place in a rational debate, none whatsoever. No doubt, as it has not been removed, there will be a massive argument soon and the thread will end up locked, as the other one concerning the BNP was.
I don't know where you get your ideas from, you don't tell us (not that you can give any reasonable argument for your irrational rubbish). I suggest, if you ever want to be taken seriously, you learn to weed out these crazy ideas of yours and start posting rational, clear, arguments. Thank God you people are in a tiny minority. BTW, please don't bother replying to this if you're just going to start swearing and calling me names again, you'll get the lock on this thread too.
You've clearly exaggerated the significance of a religion having it's own court within a country. TBH, you're not being very clear at all. Just what is your problem with a religion having it's own court? Do you simply object to some of the rules in Sharia law (which wouldn't apply to you, assuming you are not a Muslim)?
My point proven.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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RossUK1
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 8:24am |
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Odai, What is this parallel system of law? As someone who deals with the "Criminal Justice System" (in quotes for a reason - Irony) on a day to day basis all I can say is that the British laws are difficult enough to enforce, and there is not alot of justice involved. I do not know alot about Sharia law Odai and so am not going to profess I do or say you are wrong about it working in the UK. I do however know that there are a lot of problems with people being brought to justice with our current laws and this country would simply be unable to incorporate another set of laws; though I know that the UK rule of law would always take precedence (a domestic assault will ALWAYS be dealt with robustly by the Police/Courts as it should). Its a difficult one, though I love that different cultures can exist happily together in this country (I work in a town which is heavily populated by British, Iraqi's, Indian's, Polish and Somali) I do believe that this country has one of the fairest laws of any land - its the enforcing of it that this country spectacularly fails at. And for God's sake - of course Mosques can be in the UK! I am not religious and think Richard Dawkins should be "God" but everyone's belief's are their own. |
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Martyn
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Development Manager Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Huntingdon, UK Points: 7615 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 9:02am |
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I don't think we are a Christian nation any more, more secular. Religion should have nothing to do with laws/how a country is run though surely?
The problem is that many Muslims do not wish to live by those laws, they are forced upon them. I'm sure the couples who are not allowed to get married aren't happy to have Sharia law here, it may well be the reason they came to Europe
Agree completely, I am happy to have Mosques here. Everyone should be allowed to worship their own God, as long as they tolerate others and stay within our laws |
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Martyn
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Marmite
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 9:44am |
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+1 there are other places of worship (temples, synagogues, etc...) in the UK so Mosques can't be picked on. The Jewish laws Odai is talking about do exist, but they aren't compulsory, individuals decide if they wish to settle their civil matter at a Jewish court (Beth Din). However it should be thought of as arbitration rather than law. That said certain rules of Sharia law do look extreme, would it be something that is forced upon every muslim, dismissing human rights? If so then it has no place in the UK. |
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MartinW
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 9:56am |
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If anyone isn't aware of the how ridiculous the concept is, of two, or many, different systems of law operating within the same small country then quite frankly I am shocked. |
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Magic Man
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 12:56pm |
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That was the point I was trying to make with regards to calling them rules rather than 'law'. That is all they could and should remain. As Martin suggests, there is absolutely no way a true second level law system could work within another.
Anyone can follow a set of rules and be judged on them if they so wish. But that is all they are, as long as they don't contravene our laws then there is nothing legally that can be done if they are broken. If there are muslims in this country that have no interest in following Sharia 'law' then there should be no issue at all for them. If there are others that think those that break such rules should be punished in some way then they have no place in this country and should go and practice their rules somewhere else.
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Odai
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 1:14pm |
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Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't sure so that's why I simply posed it as a question. I heard about it briefly on a BBC talkshow discussion and was confused about what it was.
There have been numerous comments about certain rules under Sharia being unfair or "extreme". I can't comment much unless people start being more specific. However:
The first is correct, the second only half correct. In most cultures, the children take on the father's religion. If the father is a Muslim, then the children would be Muslims. If he isn't (in the case of a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man) then the children will be non-Muslims.
WRT the divorce, this is only the case when there are no children, or the children live with the father. If the children go to live with the mother, then the mother obviously gets the house. If there are no children, the woman would not get the house. It may seem unfair, but you have to consider the rest of Sharia, and not just one or two bits and pieces picked out by retarded media outlets to make it look bad. In Islam, when a woman gets married, everything she has is hers, and any money she makes is hers alone. The husband on the other hand has a responsibility for the household, and would provide for everyone financially. Therefore, the house would be paid for by him. Anything the woman gives to the family is charity. In this way, in the case of a divorce, the woman would be no worse off afterwards than before, and her rights are protected. The husband would have to pay a sum of money as a sort of maintenance fee too. So, in your mind, this would seem unfair, but when you consider the big picture then it's the optimal way.
I'm afraid both statements are simply not true, where is the evidence of this? The vast majority of Muslims are happy with their religion (and therefore Sharia), otherwise, they wouldn't be a Muslim would they? If you don't want to be a Muslim, then what's the problem? The rules would simply not apply to you. I only follow Sharia because I'm a Muslim. If I wasn't, I wouldn't follow Sharia. Anyone who significantly disagrees with Sharia obviously has a problem with Islam, so they would simply not be a Muslim. Therefore, in this country at least, the rulings of Sharia would not apply to them.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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Rich
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 2:00pm |
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I think people need to stop looking at everything through whatever the opposite to rose-tinted spectacles are. A friend of mine wants to get married in her partners church but first she has to become part of his church and religion and also attend a certain number of services over many months to prove her conversion before the vicar will agree to marry them. Not sure which religion it is but it's one of the very traditional, very "white" ones. Is that so different to the "extreme" example cited above? |
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VulcanB2
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 2:52pm |
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Ahhh - lest you forget they want to REPLACE UK law with Sharia law. You do realize this is just a stepping-stone to allowing a PARALLEL legal system? Get everyone saying "ahh - where is the problem?", when in fact the very problem is that they want Sharia law to be equally as binding as UK law is now, and to REPLACE UK law for certain sections of society, thereby making the UK a dual-law nation. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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Odai
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 4:22pm |
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Vulcan, no Muslim wants to replace UK law with Sharia completely. They only want it to apply to themselves, as, like it or not, it is Sharia they follow in the first place!
Up till now, I thought the thing we were discussing IS a parallel system of law. I repeat my argument; there is a massive exaggeration of the implications of having a parallel system of law for Muslims. The only thing that comes close to any explanation of why it is a bad thing to have a parallel Sharia law is Ross's idea of the implementation/enforcement of law becoming more difficult.
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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VulcanB2
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Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 5:05pm |
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Uhmmm - you have an English language comprehension problem. THEY WANT THEIR OWN LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE UK, SEPERATE FROM UK LAW, BUT EQUALLY AS BINDING, INSTEAD OF BEING SUBJECT TO UK LAW. If they want to live by the rules of Sharia, that's fine (see my example), but the ONLY LAW that applies is UK law. NO OTHER LAWS SHOULD BE ABLE TO CO-EXIST IN ANY FORM. Is that clear? Best regards, Vulcan. |
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People come to this country from many of the Muslim countries to avoid these extremely backwards laws