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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Points: 5336 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2009 at 8:23pm

Oh dear, goes from bad to worse. Odai, you do nothing for the cause you obviously care strongly about, only harm by enforcing the stereotypical views many people have of muslims in this country.

You've spoken passionately about crimes against humanity in other threads when talking about the Palestinian/Israeli issue and yet you support such inhuman and barbaric punishments for minor issues - I honestly can't understand how anyone can justify that.

 

As for two consenting adults making love on a beach, that is a bit naughty I grant you but perverted? Backward? I tell you what is backward, stoning a defenseless old woman and flogging people close to death for punishment of crimes against a religious ideal, all whilst a crowd gleefully watches.

 

And still your answers to our replies is that we are the ignorant ones and need to educate ourselves further of these fine ways and even change the legal system of this country to accommodate them... Unbelievable.
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Odai View Drop Down
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What the hell is it people don't get? I've already said the rubbish people are posting has nothing to do with Sharia!!!! It is the backward mentality of some idiots that other idiots like to exploit to make Sharia look bad.
 
It's been posted again and again and again (infact, the two posts above this one have done it again) and I'm being consistently accused of supporting this. How many times have I repeated now I do not support this, nor does Sharia!?!?! Honestly... It's the most ridiculous behaviour I've ever seen on an internet forum. I've had similar debates on countless forums, I've never encountered a problem like this where people go in with an impression of someone and refuse to read anything they write!
 
Quote I did. From an Arab based news source.
 
A news source? Why do you think it was on the news RAS? Why is it that all other Sharia rulings are never on the news? Why don't you go on an Islamic site and ask there instead about specific rules under Sharia, or look up certain punishments.
 
 
ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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737Chris View Drop Down
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Points: 2247 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 737Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2009 at 9:20pm
JERRY ! JERRY ! JERRY !

Next up.

"You slept with my cousin. whilst we were married !"

Stay tuned all that coming up after the break
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Rich View Drop Down
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So you would condemn the action of stoning somebody for adultery? Earlier you didn't and even said it was fair. Is that still the case or did I misunderstand?
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Odai View Drop Down
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I'm sorry I seem to have over-reacted, but the amount of reluctance to acutally debate this properly is quite frustrating...

RAS, no I do not condemn the action of lashing somebody for adultery. This IS Sharia. The big difference between UK and Sharia law is that Sharia takes into account morality too. Like I said before, have you ever considered the damage these acts do to society? Adultery leads to broken homes and destroyed families. Having someone lash another person is far, far less damaging than adultery. One thing I've noticed about this debate is how incredibly over-sympathetic people can be with the 'perpetrator'.
 
Having said that, what I was angry about was how people continue to come up with falsehoods about Sharia, and also accusing me about supporting them. Some of the stuff I originally reacted to seems to have disappeared from the thread, I also definitely remember Edward Longe having a post that I was responding to too, but it seems to have been deleted. Live burials, beatings for truly petty 'crimes', honor killings, extremism (think Taliban), are all things people seem to associate with Sharia. This is what get's to me. These acts are practically universally condemned, but people act like it is asked for by Sharia.
 
Like I said, if people were to stop relying on silly excuses for media outlets such as the Daily Fail for their information, and started researching on reliable sites (some Islamic sites are designed with non-Muslims in mind, to educate) then there'd be less of a problem. For example Islam online (http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml).
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Odai View Drop Down
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml
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VulcanB2 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Odai Odai wrote:

Quote Don't know if you have a sister but would you be happy for me to take her down to your local town centre and lash her with a whip just for spending time in the company of another man? Would that be "fair"?
 
Adultery:
 
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.
 
A number of cases that you refer to as disgusting are against Sharia, as I've said a millions times over and over. The vast majority of Sharia rulings are lawful. It's funny how you only pick out the examples of "rogue" punishments?

My god - are you the master at twisting things. Angry

You call those state sactioned floggings "rogue"???????????

Where is the "block/ignore this user" button...

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Odai View Drop Down
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Quote You call those state sactioned floggings "rogue"???????????

No - you're just ridiculously over-paranoid. Shame it doesn't stop at faked moon landings and GW.
 
But of course, you know considerably more than us. You must know someone in the government who told you these were state-sanctioned. And of course, you must know something that 1 and a half billion Muslims don't know about Sharia, to believe these are allowed by Sharia.
 
Ermm
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737Chris View Drop Down
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How is he being over paranoid !?  you posted it
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Edward Longe View Drop Down
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Better get the VASBO's out

CAA= Cash Again,Again!
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2009 at 9:06am
RAS, no I do not condemn the action of lashing somebody for adultery. This IS Sharia. The big difference between UK and Sharia law is that Sharia takes into account morality too.
 
Adultery leads to broken homes and destroyed families. Having someone lash another person is far, far less damaging than adultery.
 
I've been the victim of adultery... and I can tell you with utmost certainty that I would not want my wife lashed. In fact I would fight with utmost ferocity to defend her from such a barbaric assault. Adultery is most certainly the cause of extreme emotional upset, but on the other hand we would hope to live in a free country, with our partners not subjected to medieval punishments that have no place in modern society.

 

Adultery is emotionally painful I can tell you that first hand, but we don't have the right to take away another’s freedom, because to do so is to treat them as property, to keep them in thralldom... and to do that would be immoral!

 

The moral premise of objection to primitive, medieval, punishments for minor infractions is sound. And adultery, although painful and damaging to various degrees, could only be eliminated by the removal of personal freedom.

 
It's an example of the state/religion inflicting it's values on the populace. Thats fine in regard to the state, and for serious crime, but for domestic marital issues between a man and woman it's quite ridiculous to subject them to brutality.
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VulcanB2 View Drop Down
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Points: 13365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2009 at 11:55am
Quote No - you're just ridiculously over-paranoid.

How is FACT paranoia????????????????

Definition of paranoia:

Quote baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

These floggings have basis in fact.

Let's not even mention burying women up to their necks so they can be stoned to death. Ouch

Quote Shame it doesn't stop at faked moon landings and GW.

Stop trying to derail the thread. There is nothing wrong with questioning GWB over the attacks to fulfill his own motives. Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. Why did we invade again? Remind me... Oh ya - faked evidence of WMD that Dr. David Kelly was assassinated over. But no, I'm just paranoid... Wacko
 
Quote But of course, you know considerably more than us. You must know someone in the government who told you these were state-sanctioned. And of course, you must know something that 1 and a half billion Muslims don't know about Sharia, to believe these are allowed by Sharia.

Duh - if it is allowed under Sharia (law), then by definition, it is state-sactioned.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Rich View Drop Down
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I think what Odai is saying is that Sharia law itself isn't ruling that a person should be flogged. All Sharia does is rule that what a person has done (i.e. adultery) is a crime. It's then up to whomever is setting the punishment to decide the severity.
However, if these sorts of punishments are what can result from Sharia rulings then it definitely has no place in the UK. Although Sharia itself may not call for the flogging of a person, it clearly doesn't rule it out either.
The two systems are clearly incompatible and couldn't run side-by-side. Ruling floggings out completely - a UK prison shouldn't/wouldn't accept someone who has been convicted of adultery or for drawing a picture of Mohammed and Sharia "courts" held in places of worship certainly shouldn't be handing out punishments themselves instead either. Based on that, how could a dual system work?

P.S. The hypocrisy of a few people here isn't lost on me. Many of you have called for capital punishment and other forms along the lines of floggings in the past. All of a sudden they are no good when they are Sharia based?
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VulcanB2 View Drop Down
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Quote P.S. The hypocrisy of a few people here isn't lost on me. Many of you have called for capital punishment and other forms along the lines of floggings in the past. All of a sudden they are no good when they are Sharia based?

I'm for the death sentence for treason, murder and actual terrorism (e.g. detonating a bomb, not plotting to do so), but nothing less.

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Vulcan.
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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

P.S. The hypocrisy of a few people here isn't lost on me. Many of you have called for capital punishment and other forms along the lines of floggings in the past. All of a sudden they are no good when they are Sharia based?
I know I have agreed with certain forms of capital punishment in the past but that is for the worst of the worst. I.e. mass murderers, multiple rapists, child sexual abusers.
 
@Martin, thoughtful post, my respect.
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Odai View Drop Down
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Quote I've been the victim of adultery... and I can tell you with utmost certainty that I would not want my wife lashed. In fact I would fight with utmost ferocity to defend her from such a barbaric assault.
 
I'm sorry to hear that Martin.
 
However, punishment wrt the law is not about revenge. It is rare for victims of a crime (whether 'conventional' or moral) to be satisfied with the punishment the perpetrator receives. You tend to have no say whatsoever in how the perpetrator is punished, you are involved in the process only to provide evidence. Punishment is about mainly two things, retribution and deterrance. Personal feelings towards the perpetrator do not have anything whatsoever to do with the outcome of a ruling. Basically, what you want is irrelevant. The perpetrators get what they deserve. As for 'barbaric' and 'medieval', these are very subjective terms, and hold absolutely no weight.
 
Quote

Adultery is emotionally painful I can tell you that first hand, but we don't have the right to take away another’s freedom, because to do so is to treat them as property, to keep them in thralldom... and to do that would be immoral!

 

The moral premise of objection to primitive, medieval, punishments for minor infractions is sound. And adultery, although painful and damaging to various degrees, could only be eliminated by the removal of personal freedom.

 
It's an example of the state/religion inflicting it's values on the populace. Thats fine in regard to the state, and for serious crime, but for domestic marital issues between a man and woman it's quite ridiculous to subject them to brutality.
 
I see where you're coming from now. Are you saying the law should have nothing to do with our personal/moral decisions, even if they are detrimental to those around us and to society in general?
 
Quote How is FACT paranoia????????????????
 
The punishments not permitted by Sharia (such as honor killings, live burials...) are what I referred to as 'rogue'. You claimed these were covered up and supported by the government. This is nuts. That's why I called you paranoid.  
 
Quote Stop trying to derail the thread. There is nothing wrong with questioning GWB over the attacks to fulfill his own motives. Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. Why did we invade again? Remind me... Oh ya - faked evidence of WMD that Dr. David Kelly was assassinated over. But no, I'm just paranoid... Wacko
 
I was just proving my argument further by demonstrating how your attitude extends to nearly everything. And GW stands for global warming. Ermm
 
Quote Duh - if it is allowed under Sharia (law), then by definition, it is state-sactioned.
 
For future reference, before you make such comments as you did in this post, please make sure you actually know what the person you are trying to contradict was on about in the first place...
 
Quote I think what Odai is saying is that Sharia law itself isn't ruling that a person should be flogged. All Sharia does is rule that what a person has done (i.e. adultery) is a crime. It's then up to whomever is setting the punishment to decide the severity.

That's not what I meant, no. But, like I said, I am not an expert on this whatsoever. So, I don't want to either confirm or reject your idea. I did think though that Sharia does call for specific types of punishment. You'll have to look it up though to be 100% sure.
 
Quote The two systems are clearly incompatible and couldn't run side-by-side. Ruling floggings out completely - a UK prison shouldn't/wouldn't accept someone who has been convicted of adultery or for drawing a picture of Mohammed and Sharia "courts" held in places of worship certainly shouldn't be handing out punishments themselves instead either. Based on that, how could a dual system work?
 
But it would only apply to Muslims wouldn't it? It's something they believe in, it would be adminstered and controlled by them? It terms of actual 'rules', as was said before, there is no significant contradiction. The only problem is the situation wrt punishments... But are these actually banned by UK law?
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VulcanB2 View Drop Down
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Quote The punishments not permitted by Sharia (such as honor killings, live burials...) are what I referred to as 'rogue'. You claimed these were covered up and supported by the government.

No - we were clearly talking about PUBLIC LASHINGS. See - you twist it again.

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Vulcan.
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MartinW View Drop Down
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I see where you're coming from now. Are you saying the law should have nothing to do with our personal/moral decisions, even if they are detrimental to those around us and to society in general?

 

It’s quite simple really.

 

You are advocating a barbaric, archaic, primitive, punishment like lashing, for what is in essence a domestic dispute between a married couple.

 

Adultery causes emotional upset, it sure does, I can vouch for that, but that’s life I’m afraid, life is full of emotional trauma, ups and downs. What about all the other causes of emotional trauma that can be inflicted on a marital partner, do we lash them for that too

 

Our moral decisions are capable of negative impact on an individual and being detrimental to society, and punishment for such things is frequently required, but there has to be a threshold below which no punishment is administered. And punishing adulterers is well below that threshold.

 

My point is that despite being on the receiving end of adultery and personally suffering more than you could possibly know, I am absolutely resolute in my belief that lashing is wrong, in fact lashing is backward and has no place in any society.

 

You frequently advocate some quite advanced concepts [in terms of a societies maturity] like being against patriotism and racism etc, so it surprises me greatly that you favor barbaric primitive physical punishments.

 
You can't favour the advancent of humankind and society on one hand, and still advocate barbaric physical punishments on the other hand, that my friend is a contradiction. 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
 
 
I am a man that has to cope with obsessive compulsive disorder on a daily basis, so you can imagine how I suffered as a result of my wife’s adultery.

 

But how did I respond?

 

With compassion!

 

Compare that with the society in question that responds to adultery by taking a woman into the streets, taking off her cloths, and in view of all lashes her till huge welts appear on her back, inflicting abject pain.

 

Who is superior, them or me? Who is primitive, them or me?

 

If you witnessed such a thing, a woman crying in pain, as she was whipped repeatedly, if you witnessed the damage to her body, would you have any compassion? Would you look down at the poor woman and wish it to stop?

 

Or would you condone such a thing.

 

I hope you wouldn't be that primitive.

 

If the culture in question advocates such a thing, I'm glad I'm not part of it.

 

If the religion in question condones such a thing, then I'm glad I’m not a religious man.

 

If the god they believe in condones the inflicting of pain on another, then I’m glad I don’t believe in thier god.
 
 
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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Couldn't of said it better myself...
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