This forum is in read-only mode for archive purposes, please use our new forum at https://community.justflight.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Just Chat > Just Chat - General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Windows 7
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Windows 7

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
Message
In Kontrol View Drop Down
P1
P1
Avatar

Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Location: Cumbria, UK
Points: 711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote In Kontrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2009 at 11:15pm
(ignores the huge techno geek war between them two)
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 12:08am
Originally posted by In Kontrol In Kontrol wrote:

(ignores the huge techno geek war between them two)
. "There can be only one"...
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:44am
I see a lot of arguments without any facts to back them up.

Try this then (if you're brave enough): start MS Word (or FS if you want), then move the FS9.EXE executable someplace else. Tell me if Windows ever moans it disappeared whilst the app is running.

It won't.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:51am
Here, let me show you. Unlike all the endless arguments in that other forum, I show facts. Nothing else.

I haven't edited this screenshot. I'll make a video if you so insist, but you'll have to wait. BTW, my swap file is disabled.



Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:00am
Task Manager. As you can see, the PF is disabled. The 2533 Mb is the physical memory. That is all the BIOS will allocate to 32-bit OS. You'll note I'm still running FS whilst doing all this.

Note carefully the run time of "System Idle Process". If no swap file was really that bad, it would have screwed up by now.

If none of my REAL TESTS aren't enough to convince you that there is NO problem, oh well. Your loss.



Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:14am
Just for you, I filled up the RAM. Note FS is also running.

The system is running just fine, as I got the screenshot, etc...




Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:28am
As they say, talk is cheap. I'm known for actually delivering.

PHYSICAL MEMORY AVAILABLE: 14,228 kB.

She's still running. Wink  If this was Vista, I'd have to really try hard to crash it. I'm getting extremely close here. Still, I'm typing away...

If I do crash it, I'll post a photo. I won't be able to get a screen capture.




Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:37am
Well, I ran it out of memory. GIMP crashed first, saving the rest of the system. I'm going to reboot just to be sure though.

Here it is. It took iTunes to push it over the edge. .

I'm going to call this the Great Windows XP Stress Test. Big%20smile  The system is still running BTW. Wink

FS is still happily flying along, too.

If this isn't enough to convince you that the people in those other forums/web sites are talking rubbish, there is no hope.

For anyone else following along, I hope this was interesting.



Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:49am
I'm outta here! Night!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 10:29am
Do you ever sleep?
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 12:38pm

Okay, they, like me, are all wrong, and the mighty Vulcan is right... not.

Your tests are all testament to your faith and to be respected, just as your 'proofs' posted in the past as to your conspiracy theories and global warming stuff - unfortunately doesn't change the fact that you are still wrong on this like you are on the other topics.
 
Your tests show you opening up lots and lots of backed store, i.e. stuff that exists on the drive anyway. The page file is not used for any of that, it has no need, it's already backed on the disk in physical files. You turning off the page file really has no different affect for such an example since having the page file enabled wouldn't help in such a situation anyway, none of that stuff that is already on the drive will be moved out to the page file when the memory is needed for something else anyway, it'll just be dropped and reloaded from the files. All you've proved is what the page file isn't used for.
 
Open up a large image file (in something other than PS just to make sure), do lots and lots of edits to it (i.e. creating undos), do as much as you can to it without saving the file. Now see how far you can go with and without a page file. You are just forcing Windows to make memory management decisions with its hands tied ultimately leading to a poorer performing system than if it had the page file available to use.
 
Ultimately, it still comes down to the fact that you gain essentially nothing by removing the page file and only open yourself up to loss of unbacked store. So why bother removing it in the first place...?
 
Quote For anyone else following along, I hope this was interesting.
Interesting in the same way as seeing one of those guys walking down the street preaching over a megaphone is...
 
If your conviction is so strong, sign up to that forum and post your conclusive proof that they are all wrong and only you are right, go on, please...
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 1:08pm
I think we should vote on who's right.
 
My vote goes to Magic Man...
 
Because he is usually right, why we call him the technodude, and more importantly because he mentioned Pointy's global warming anti-logic.
 
Thumbs%20Up
 
 
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 1:33pm

Looked back and noted this little gem...

Quote start MS Word (or FS if you want), then move the FS9.EXE executable someplace else. Tell me if Windows ever moans it disappeared whilst the app is running.
 
I'm at work so can't say how big the FS9.exe is for certain, doubt it's that large. I'm running Word 2007 here, the .exe is 340KB. Do you think that is the entire program, really? - bit of a cheek putting it on a DVD when it could really fit on a floppy...? 
 
It's nothing but a stub. Notice all the (many) .dlls in the office directory? Moving, or renaming (or deleting if you want) the winword.exe will do effectively nothing once Word it running because it's already loaded and it's no longer looking at it, all the stuff when you go through the various functions and tools is loaded in from the various .dll and other files. You'd have to fill the memory to the point the Windows decides to drop pages from winword.exe (because it knows it can do so without issue because it's backed and can be loaded back from the file) before you saw any issue and a potential crash.
 
Just as applicable to FS9 I don't doubt.
 
@Martin, cheque is in the post... Thumbs%20Up
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 1:45pm
You don't understand any of this do you?

Did you not get the point when I *DELETED* the FS9.EXE file with FS running? FS9.EXE was no longer "backed by a file on the HD" as you put it. Based on what you're saying, the system should have failed because when it killed FS9.EXE in memory to load other stuff (based on your description of how it works), oops - FS9.EXE wasn't on the HD to look at. Dead

The memory manager does not care for the source of data in memory. It doesn't even know where it came from!!!!

Keep believing the rubbish your spouting. I'm not contributing to this thread any further.

Read your  own comment very carefully:

Quote You'd have to fill the memory to the point the Windows decides to drop pages from winword.exe

Do you know what this actually means? The system NEVER drops pages of actively running applications. That would be like removing a memory module whilst the system is running and expecting it to continue to function.

Quote (because it knows it can do so without issue because it's backed and can be loaded back from the file)

Finally - enough rope to hang yourself. Totally incorrect! If this is how it worked, the page file wouldn't need to exist, because (as you say) it is already "backed" by winword.exe on the hard disk (excluding the spontaneously created user data you keep pointing to).

Nope! This is how it actually works:

The pagefile is 100% totally and utterly invisible to any application on the system. If I wanted to address the page file, I couldn't. Impossible.

Here's the flow of the memory manager:

You start an app. Like it or not, it is loaded into physical memory.

The program starts executing. Whether it relies on DLLs or not, the main .EXE must remain in memory, and still operate. All a DLL is, is a way of loading/unloading code at runtime in order to reduce the memory usage to the minimum practical. You could write an app into a single .EXE but this would be huge and unweildly and a gross waste of resources.

Now, assume I load another app that requires more memory than is available. With a swap file in existance, the following occurs:

First, Windows takes my currently running app, and copies the MEMORY it occupies, into the swap file. Next, it frees the physical memory it just copied. Now, it goes and loads the app I'm loading, and runs it.

If I task switch and return to the other app, Windows has to literally swap (hence its name) the running app to disk (into the swap file), then copy my app back out into main memory then continue executing it.

That is all the swap file does.

Problem is, Windows is dumber than you think.

Paged vs. Non-Paged memory.

It is very simple. All Kernel memory is NON-PAGED. All that means is when it is allocated, it is flagged that it can NEVER be written out to the faux memory called the swap file. The reason for this is it will result in system failure if it did so. The reason is because if it was paged out, and a call was made to the memory location, oh dear - we swapped it out (remember - apps can not see the page file at all). Instant system failure.

Why? Simple - the Kernel memory isn't managed by the virtual memory manger (vmm386). This little app keeps a record of what went to the hard disk and what didn't.

Now, user apps (the stuff we use every day) mainly use paged memory. Nothing special about it, only it is flagged as being pageable. If there is something I don't want to be written to the swap file for security purposes for example, I will allocate a block of non-paged memory using Win32 API calls and write my data to/from that memory.

When Windows wants to shift some data out to the swap file, it shoots from the hip however.

Your not-so-intelligent memory manager picks a block of memory that is a bit bigger than it requires (remmbering that it can only allocate memory AT THE TIME IT IS REQUESTED - it isn't a mind reader, and does NOT allocate ALL the memory an app might require before hand!!!!). If the app during load, or during use, then requests more memory, again, it looks at the memory map, looks for a block of memory, swaps it out then allocates it to the newly loaded app.

It is as dumb as that. It does not give a stuff where the data came from (CD, Memory Stick, HD) or whether any data in memory is "backed by disk". IT DOES NOT KNOW, IT DOES NOT CARE.

Get a clue dammit!!!!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
Matt N View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Points: 2287
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt N Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:47pm
. I never knew that me mentioning the fact a slower HDD would result in a performance loss would cause a riot.
 
Vulcan, incase your still interested, 7 RC and Vista SP2 give out the same FPS, with Vista SP2 being a little higher in some places. I'll put that down to the slower HDD on 7 RC. Smoothness wise 7 RC was completely smooth, no sharp flickers.
 
Although in 7 RC, I've noticed a few black squares [which load after a couple of seconds] on the ground texture. So I put that down to the slower HDD aswell.
 
Matt.
Originally Posted by MartinW

I use mine for spare knickers when I'm traveling.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:57pm
Quote Although in 7 RC, I've noticed a few black squares [which load after a couple of seconds] on the ground texture. So I put that down to the slower HDD aswell.

Exactly - the slow hard disk only results in slower texture loads. As you found, the actual sim runs the same.

Which graphics card do you have, and which drivers are you running? Sorry if I missed this already.

Thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have a look later at getting 7 up and running. Probably won't be for another week.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

You don't understand any of this do you?
No, obviously not, neither do all those top end guys either. We are all wrong and Vulcan alone is right...
Quote
Did you not get the point when I *DELETED* the FS9.EXE file with FS running? FS9.EXE was no longer "backed by a file on the HD" as you put it. Based on what you're saying, the system should have failed because when it killed FS9.EXE in memory to load other stuff (based on your description of how it works), oops - FS9.EXE wasn't on the HD to look at. Dead
 
Yes I did get your point, you didn't read or get mine. As said FS9.exe is not FS9 just as winword.exe is not Word 2007. The system didn't fail the moment you deleted FS9.exe because it had FS9.exe in RAM and obviously didn't get to the point were it needed to release any part of FS9.exe or if it did it didn't get at least to the part where it needed to page back in part of FS9.exe from the file. Irrespective, what is your point here in relation to the page file? Because it didn't crash you somehow don't need a page file...?
 
Quote
The memory manager does not care for the source of data in memory. It doesn't even know where it came from!!!!
 It obviously must know exactly from where backed and cached code in memory came from in order to page that stuff back in from file when it has been released and is required again.
Quote
Keep believing the rubbish your spouting. I'm not contributing to this thread any further.
Good because you are just digging a deeper hole for your own recycled waste.
 
Quote
Quote You'd have to fill the memory to the point the Windows decides to drop pages from winword.exe

Do you know what this actually means? The system NEVER drops pages of actively running applications. That would be like removing a memory module whilst the system is running and expecting it to continue to function.
 
Define actively running applications? What if I tab to something else, what about that video encoding in the background whilst Word is just sitting there with an empty document - it never gets paged out I assume? So every application loaded, all the OS stuff loaded, it never gets dropped to free RAM when the system requests free space? Really? How does anyone ever manage to load or do anything more in total than the amount of physical RAM they have...? That is what paging is for and, in the case of unbacked pages and user data, what the page file is for.
 
Quote
Quote (because it knows it can do so without issue because it's backed and can be loaded back from the file)

Finally - enough rope to hang yourself. Totally incorrect! If this is how it worked, the page file wouldn't need to exist, because (as you say) it is already "backed" by winword.exe on the hard disk (excluding the spontaneously created user data you keep pointing to).
 
Except in your igorance you are assuming the page file is used for stuff that is already backed. It is not, there is no need since backed stuff already exists as the .exe's, .dll's and all the other files on the disk.
 
 
Quote
Nope! This is how it actually works:
[... fluff ...]
Now, assume I load another app that requires more memory than is available. With a swap file in existance, the following occurs:

First, Windows takes my currently running app, and copies the MEMORY it occupies, into the swap file. Next, it frees the physical memory it just copied. Now, it goes and loads the app I'm loading, and runs it.
NO IT DOESN'T....
And you've just looped that rope around your own neck since you've only just said "The system NEVER drops pages of actively running applications."
 
If it did do that where does that leave you with your insistence that you don't need a 'swap' file (please use the correct name, it is a page file)...?
 
The page file is used for unbacked store, that is pages that have changed since they were loaded from file, stuff that you have created and haven't saved yet etc. etc. If the memory manager decides that the best course of action is to drop pages from application code it simply drops them, it doesn't write them anywhere since it has no need, they already exist as files anyway and can be reloaded when required from there.
Quote
If I task switch and return to the other app, Windows has to literally swap (hence its name) the running app to disk (into the swap file), then copy my app back out into main memory then continue executing it.
Rubbish, this is 2009, we are not dealing with single tasking systems anymore or are you still running Win3.1? (which would explain the insistence on calling it a swap file rather than page file) - what, when you alt-tab away from an application you think it gets suspended to disk - stuff only gets paged out (does not mean to page file) if there is a requirement for free RAM that cannot be supplied without doing so. How the hell does anyone do anthing more than one thing at a time if every time we alt-tab from an apps it gets suspened to disk. I'm running iTunes and have "alt-tab'ed" to this reply, strange, iTunes is still playing... And swap file is an old term... it is a page file we are talking about (which, as said, has nothing to do with already backed application code anyway).
 
Quote
That is all the swap file does.
Wrong name, wrong preconecption. Just wrong all around basically...
 
Quote
Problem is, Windows is dumber than you think.
It's memory manager could run rings around you...
 
[more fluff]
 
Quote
Get a clue dammit!!!!
Post your 'truth' in that forum, I beg you, please... I could just link from there to this thread but that would be cruel...
 
Please matey, read those threads and learn what a page file is for and why removing it is a daft idea. There are plenty of simple and short replies there that I could block quote here but I neither have the time nor patience to do so. I urge everyone who's vaguely followed this to just glance over those threads and you'll see the exact same misconceptions posted by pointy echoed there and the corrected and informed replies from the experts.
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

Quote Although in 7 RC, I've noticed a few black squares [which load after a couple of seconds] on the ground texture. So I put that down to the slower HDD aswell.

Exactly - the slow hard disk only results in slower texture loads. As you found, the actual sim runs the same.

Which graphics card do you have, and which drivers are you running? Sorry if I missed this already.

Thanks for proving my point.
 
Ummm, it didn't. . It proved that the slower hard disk did have an effect on the overall performance of the sim. It manifested itself as slower loading scenery files but since the I/O stuff has been handed over to the mutli-core stuff, it doesn't impact on the the sim running in this case. Extrapolate the drive running even slower, on a single core system and those few black blocks turn into jerky scenery.
 
Geez, you are amazing...Confused
Back to Top
Matt N View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Points: 2287
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt N Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:22pm

Vulcan, here's the specs:

Originally posted by Matt N Matt N wrote:

The specs are:
 
C2D E6850 OC'ed to 3.6GHz
4GB PC2-8500 RAM
2 X ATI HD4870 (512MB)
160GB HDD - Windows 7 x64 RC
 
Matt.
 
EDIT: Forgot to say, the resolution will be 1920x1080.
 
The drivers are V9.5.
 
(ATI of courseWink)
 
Matt.
Originally Posted by MartinW

I use mine for spare knickers when I'm traveling.
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:38pm
and the corrected and informed replies from the experts.
 
You know, I've told him time and time again to listen to the experts, but does he listen? Big%20smile
 
I had a look at your links anyway magic but it was too scary.  Confused
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down