Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

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MartinW

Moderator in Command

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722

Posted: 28 May 2009 at 9:07am

Yes, John and Martyn are correct.

There is little point in having a 'chat' forum if members can't express themselves freely.

In fact since its inception, the chat forum has been incredibly popular. On the whole, this is the least moderated sim forum there is, in part thanks to the [usually] friendly well behaved members that participate. We should be grateful that we have a means to express ourselves this way. True, that in any forum there will be a trouble maker or two that turn up, and rest assured, as Martyn said, we keep a close eye on them.

Moderators are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Frequently I have locked topics that were getting out of hand and in a flash received PM's admonishing me for locking the topic, claiming it was locked prematurely and that I was 'over moderating'. Leave them, and those that have an issue with the subject matter complain.

And yes Edward, the moderators are certainly surly, ill humoured, arrogant and dominering... but only when we haven't had our Turnock's caramel wafers.

VulcanB2

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365

Posted: 28 May 2009 at 11:48am

@John: excellent post.

Best regards,
Vulcan.

Odai

Chief Pilot

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 2:10am

Odai, the patriotism of the thousands of fallen heroes of this country, and of yours, whose bodies lie in Normandy and in dozens of other places around the globe and at the bottoms of the world's oceans is a great and honorable thing. Patriotism in a good cause is a noble thing, not the root of evil you would make of it. You offend me, sir, by suggesting that and you haven't even the good grace to be civil while doing so.

Rather than another round of offensive rant from you in return, Odai, I'd like to hear from the others in this forum, who you seem to hold in such low regard. Sit on your hands for a few days and see what they have to say. If you don't like what they say, perhaps you should consider casting your pearls before other swine. I'm sure they have forums on Al Jazeera.

Other than your post being riddled with complete ignorance and offensive material, most of which is not even worth replying to, you've made several completely unjustifiable statements.

You've classed an entire country, 300 million and all, with a single personality. What a load of rubbish. In every country, there are good people, there are bad, there are nutcases. What a load of tripe. It's this sort of ignorance patriotism instills, and I was hoping to bring this to light in an intelligent debate here. Looks like there aren't enough intelligent people here to begin with.

It's a shame all those people died for nothing, their bravery wasted. I'm glad you proved my point about patriotism by making it clearer how people went on to kill and maim for the sake of their country (patriotism), no matter how good their intentions were.

Hitler only wanted lebansraum and invented the idea of aryan superiority because he was patriotic, so good on him!

I don't care how many good things arise from patriotism, it always does more harm than good, and has no place in society if mankind wants to go anywhere good.

Patriotism is responsible for:

-Hitler and his nationalistic extremist movement

-Saddam

-The Middle East conflict (if Zionism's aims had never come to fruition, where would we be today?)

-The BNP

-Racism

-War

i hope i don't offend you in anyway Odai when i say, Your are a racist.

Of course you don't offend me, I don't take anything you say seriously. You call me a racist when I start threads specifically to attack groups which promote racism (that you support openly, you're the racist calling for a nationalistic Britain)? It's not even funny...

and what he hates ( before it got edited by mods )

I suggest you hold your tongue. I know you're the kind of guy who would support that sort of behaviour, but I've made it perfectly clear I'm not a racist. Jeez, I know you're openly foolish, but I thought by starting threads to discuss this issue, and promoting my views, it would be clear how much I abhor racism. I think your posts are best ignored...

What's he supposed to give up? He's already struggling as it is to pay his way.

I'm talking in general. There is plenty we can give up. You know it, so stop trying to be so condescending. We live in a world of luxuries, none of which we truly need. I'm sure you've heard the statement "There is enough in the world for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed".

that a word to the wise was called for in this thread and that it hasn't yet crossed the line to the point where it needs to be locked.

Which you seem to have ignored, considering some of the direct insults you made in your post...

It's funny to see most of the replies I have seen have completely ignored most of the undeniable truths I've put forward about patriotism, and gone straight to trying either to offend me (I see the age argument has popped up again, what a joke... if anything, my age gives me an advantage....), or coming up with illogical arguments about things that are irrelevant.

Patriotism will always be popular because it gives people (here at least) what they want. It's a shame most are too short-sighted to see past it.

It's interesting to see the problems in the world (some are even flashed daily onto our TV screens) caused by patriotism, then see people come up with childish arguments to defend it...

It's sad too see by the way the "life is tough" replies by some people... Wierd how that only applies when it suits you, isn't it?

ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

frikken_Awesome View Drop Down

P/UT

Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Points: 214

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 2:56am

I like Odai's point about "patriotism", and enjoy reading some of the reactions here. VERY interesting topic. I want to be able to disagree with Odai, but just can't find a glaring error, yet...

Flightboy

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 3:04am

I'm glad you proved my point about patriotism by making it clearer how people went on to kill and maim for the sake of their country (patriotism), no matter how good their intentions were

Like the people of palestine who are killing for their country?

Flightboy

MartinW

Moderator in Command

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 9:26am

was hoping to bring this to light in an intelligent debate here. Looks like there aren't enough intelligent people here to begin with.

Odai, when you express yourself the way you have in your very first post, in regard to patriotism, knowing full well that there are some very patriotic people on this forum, [and most forums] then it's bound to incite a very strong reaction isn't it? It would certainly have been 'intelligent' to have taken that into consideration.

You must have known this. Comments like the ones quoted below could well be perceived as a deliberate attempt to enrage, and could have been written with far more tact.

Patriotism in excess doesn't please me much actually, but i certainly wouldn't have expressed that with such venom and lack of consideration.

It is the favourite ideaology for those who are greedy, ignorant, and lacking brains.

I can think of no better way to express my disgust with the idea that has absorbed so many fools today.

Patriots are incredibly self-absorbed. They cannot appreciate truly what they have. Because of their ignorance, children starve to death in Africa.

This idea of "my country first" is pathetic and is nothing more than the proclamation of a low-life. If only people would have a little more intelligence. What ever happened to thinking?

Magic Man

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 12:48pm

I see god is back...

No, they died to free us. Unfortunately, killing and maiming is sort of a side effect of war.

If it wasn't for their patriotic sacrifice most of us probably wouldn't be here now - you certainly wouldn't be...

In Kontrol View Drop Down

Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Location: Cumbria, UK
Points: 711

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 2:43pm

Odai wrote:

I'm talking in general. There is plenty we can give up. You know it, so stop trying to be so condescending. We live in a world of luxuries, none of which we truly need. I'm sure you've heard the statement "There is enough in the world for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed".

We may not "need" luxuries but we damn right work for them, so we deserve them.

I own two bikes and I slaved my rear end off to pay for them, both equaling £2000. I'm not prepared to give up a hobby just because you say so.

Odai

Chief Pilot

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 5:15pm

Like the people of palestine who are killing for their country?

The Palestinians don't even have a country, so if I were you I'd make sure I actually knew what I was talking about before saying anything.

Besides, the Palestinian cause is not a patriotic one (maybe to some, but in general, no). It is the cause to re-unite the millions of refugees with their stolen lands and homes. Are you against this?

Your original comment would have been more suitable if it were in reference to the "Jewish" Zionist terrorist groups Hagganah, Stern, Irgun etc that fought for the establishment of the Jewish state, commiting many unspeakable crimes in the name of patriotism and nationalism.

I hope you understand my original comments were not directed at anyone in particular, I did not intend for anyone to be offended. I had hoped people would have accepted my comments as "constructive criticism" of an idea I despise.

No, they died to free us. Unfortunately, killing and maiming is sort of a side effect of war.

I see... Well, I reckon your historical knowledge is severely lacking if you believe the Nazi soldiers fought for Hitler to bring us freedom.

I know what you're referring to, but you've completely ignored an entire side to this.

If it wasn't for their patriotic sacrifice most of us probably wouldn't be here now - you certainly wouldn't be...

You know what? You're absolutely right. If it wasn't for the patriotic sacrifice of the Zionist terrorists in the early 20th Century, then I wouldn't be here at all, I'd be living in Palestine with my family. Probably in a world where "the Middle East conflict" doesn't exist.

You're not grasping what I'm telling you. It's far bigger than that. What did you do to get the £2000 for bikes? Now what would an Indonesian child, working to produce the products you buy so cheaply, have to do to earn that kind of money?

Things are hard for those people because of our greed, and it's not going to stop if things continue as they are.

Interestingly, the comment I quoted earlier ("There is enough in the world for everyone's need...") was made by Ghandi. Would you have heard someone like Nick Griffin make this kind of statement? No, because they are concerned only with their own well-being... This is the foundation of greed that I refer to.

ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

MarkH

Chief Pilot

Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Points: 1570

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 5:23pm

If it wasn't for the patriotic sacrifice of the Zionist terrorists in the early 20th Century, then I wouldn't be here at all, I'd be living in Palestine with my family. Probably in a world where "the Middle East conflict" doesn't exist.

Ahhhh, now we get to the bottom of things. Is this what keeps you up at night Odai? Those damned Zionist's again!! Confused

VulcanB2

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 5:37pm

The Palestinians don't even have a country, so if I were you I'd make sure I actually knew what I was talking about before saying anything.

In that case then they won't mind not fighting and just get along instead? Based on your logic, they don't need to fight for a country to belong to. Confused

Best regards,
Vulcan.

MartinW

Moderator in Command

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 9:41pm

I hope you understand my original comments were not directed at anyone in particular,

Thats not the point.

Greedy, ignorant, lacking brains, fools, self absorbed, ignorant, pathetic, low-life all directed at patriotic individuals. And there are patriotic individuals on this forum. And you knew that.

Were you oblivious to the potential outcome, or just trying to give the moderators work to do?

it could easily have been worded in such a way, that the patriotic individuals on this forum would be less offended.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Do you see how the debates you start would go a lot smoother and on a more friendly basis if you considered who would be responding and whether they too belonged to the target group you chide?

If you debate with patriotic individuals on this forum the notion that patriots are self-absorbed low-life's, you can expect fireworks can't you?

Odai

Chief Pilot

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 10:02pm

Based on your logic, they don't need to fight for a country to belong to.

That's completely untrue. I've already said, clearly, the Palestinian cause is to re-unite the millions of refugees with their stolen lands and homes. Who cares what "county" they belong to? This, again, is the kind if petty-mindedness patriotism instills. As long as the system is fair (not being forced to live under Jewish only rule), and they can live in their own homes again, what's the problem?

ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

icudan

Chief Pilot

Suspended

Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Location: Willenhall, UK
Points: 1909

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 10:22pm

Thank you Martin! Apparently I'm a racist!

allardjd

Moderator in Command

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Florida - USA
Points: 4506

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 10:30pm

I see! ...and all these demands for a two-state solution to the problem, which Netanyahu has rejected? Those must stem from non-nationalistic, not-patriotic motives from the Palestinians. Now I understand....

I can see clearly now how unbiased you are, not driven by nationalism, patriotism, racism, religion or anything except pure, fair-minded intellect, unencumbered by any bias or prejudice whatsoever. How commendable.

John

John Allard

Magic Man

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Points: 5336

Posted: 29 May 2009 at 11:02pm

Odai wrote:

If it wasn't for the patriotic sacrifice of the Zionist terrorists in the early 20th Century, then I wouldn't be here at all, I'd be living in Palestine with my family. Probably in a world where "the Middle East conflict" doesn't exist.

[...]

Things are hard for those people because of our greed, and it's not going to stop if things continue as they are.

So we can assume that you live by your word...?

Why do you choose to live in this country at all? Why aren't you living in Palestine practicing what you preach...?

In Kontrol View Drop Down

Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Location: Cumbria, UK
Points: 711

Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:07am

I give up with this silly twonk.

VulcanB2

Chief Pilot

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365

Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:13am

That's completely untrue. I've already said, clearly, the Palestinian cause is to re-unite the millions of refugees with their stolen lands and homes.

Stolen or not, they're living there, so based on that, they've no need to fight. Let Israel control the land if they want, and integrate with Israel if the land is so important. Which country controls it shouldn't matter if it has nothing to do with patriotism...

Best regards,
Vulcan.

Odai

Chief Pilot

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731

Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:27pm

The political side of things, used to try and achieve peace, is not the same as the Palestinian cause. I know you're probably too short-sighted to understand this, but there is something called comprimise. This is what the politicians aim to achieve.

So we can assume that you live by your word...?

What do you mean?

Why do you choose to live in this country at all? Why aren't you living in Palestine practicing what you preach...?

How is my choice of where I live got any relevance to this topic. Further, what has it got to do with you?

To answer your silly question though, why don't the millions of refugees that were expelled by Israel return home?

Stolen or not, they're living there, so based on that, they've no need to fight.

There appears to be 70 years of historical knowledge missing from your head. Let me fill you in.

-Zionist terrorist groups helped to ethnically cleanse many arab villages prior to the establishment of the state

-Israel used the wars to steal more and more land

-To this day, Israel continues it's policy of illegal land grabbing ("confiscation")

As a result, there are millions of REFUGEES not living in their own homes. Some forced into tiny, cramped areas where conditions are horrific, some forced out of the country altogether.

If the international community does nothing for them, then they have no alternative but to fight to regain their stolen lands and homes.

Let Israel control the land if they want, and integrate with Israel if the land is so important.

Why Israel? Israel is a Jewish state. They will be living under Jewish only control. Further to this, Israel is an apartheid state (like South Africa used to be). Palestinians are discriminated against in the most horrific of ways.

The only solution is to have a single state where everybody has equal rights, and to allow the refugees to return to their homes.

ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

allardjd

Moderator in Command

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Florida - USA
Points: 4506

Posted: 02 Jun 2009 at 4:09pm

The only solution is to have a single state where everybody has equal rights...

Including equal rights for women? The right to own property, divorce their husbands, vote, hold a job, choose their own spouse, expose their hair (or face) in public if they choose to, dress as they wish, have equal access to higher education, to associate with men not of their own family without a male family member present and to not be discriminated against in any other way as a result of their gender - all those would be guaranteed in this single state where everybody has equal rights - is that what you propose, or do I misunderstand?

John

John Allard