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Dambuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dambuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2009 at 10:29pm
Skoda , does anyone here find them hot? Good looking?
Just ask Clarkson & Co, they'll put them all as 'seriously uncool' (speaking of which, does anyone here know when the show will be back on? On what channel?) on their wall, nah but it is true that there's some VW technology involved so they're ok reliability wise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hot_Charlie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2009 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Dambuster Dambuster wrote:

Skoda , does anyone here find them hot? Good looking?
Just ask Clarkson & Co, they'll put them all as 'seriously uncool' (speaking of which, does anyone here know when the show will be back on? On what channel?) on their wall, nah but it is true that there's some VW technology involved so they're ok reliability wise.


SOME VW technology eh? Skoda Octavia - it's a VW Golf with a bigger boot a different body, and a couple of grand off the price. Who'd have though 10 years ago a Skoda would also have the most advanced gearbox available in a family car either?

As for small Skodas, the old model Fabia can't be faulted. You can even get a hot hatch version of it which is only Gp9 (still prohibitively pricey for a new driver! ), and does 53mpg. . Some decent other Fabias - a 1.2 Classic is Gp1!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2009 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Mrbobo Mrbobo wrote:

I'm sure my little corsa could still beat most 2 litre cars! Its about the driver not the car!
 
I could drive over your little Corsa...Big%20smile
 
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

2.2 litres or beastiness here...! And she is a real beast. Like Dambuster, we smile as we cruise along and pass little whimpy engines screaming at high revs just to move...WinkBig%20smile

Forgive me magic magic man, but aren't you the individual that proclaims to be a law abiding motorist and never brakes the speed limit?
 
If so, and given that very few people drive slower that the speed limit, how do you actually achieve that pray tell? Wink
 
 
 
When they are struggling to climb hills...Wink Yep, never break the limit intentionally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 8:33am
Yeah right, you blew it there speed merchant! Wink
 
Diesels have rubbish torque anyway, unless you have a whopping turbo it won't compete with an equivalent petrol engine. Excuse me while I guffaw. .
 
naturally aspirated diesels tend to lack power at the top of the speed range. Snigger!
 
It's a bit like driving a farmers tractor. Evil%20Smile
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Dambuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dambuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 9:27am
Sorry Martin, disagree... How does 350NM sound? VW's 170bhp 2.0 TDI is brilliant with loads of torque compared to the petrol version. Diesels ARE known to have more torque than petrol engines, just go check it out for yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 9:40am

Thanks for the help guys!

I went out looking for cars yesterday. Particularly liked the Fiesta 1.25 Zetec. Sat in one and felt it was one of those cars you can see all the corners of (which I want for a first car)! Also like the Renault Clio (newer shape). Doesn't look like insurance will be any cheaper than £2000, i've got lots of quotes for lots of different cars. 
Kind regards,
Tom
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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 11:04am
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

Diesels have rubbish torque anyway, unless you have a whopping turbo it won't compete with an equivalent petrol engine. Excuse me while I guffaw. .
 
naturally aspirated diesels tend to lack power at the top of the speed range. Snigger!
 
It's a bit like driving a farmers tractor. Evil%20Smile
 
Umm, exactly. How many petrol farmers tractors are there pulling heavy loads...? Most modern car diesels are turbo enabled.
 
Ours has 400 Nm (295 lb ft) of torque available at 2000RPM and has a variable nozzle turbocharger.
 
Real power...Wink
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twright View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 11:07am
If you lived anywhere near me that would have been nicked off your driveway within a month!
Kind regards,
Tom
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Dambuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dambuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Magic Man Magic Man wrote:

Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:


Diesels have rubbish torque anyway, unless you have a whopping turbo it won't compete with an equivalent petrol engine. Excuse me while I guffaw. .

 

naturally aspirated diesels tend to lack power at the top of the speed range. Snigger!

 

It's a bit like driving a farmers tractor. Evil%20Smile

 

Umm, exactly. How many petrol farmers tractors are there pulling heavy loads...? Most modern car diesels are turbo enabled.

 

Ours has 400 Nm (295 lb ft) of torque available at 2000RPM and has a variable nozzle turbocharger.

 

Real power...Wink



Ditto. One example I love is the Audi Q7 V12 TDI... 500 bhp, 1000NM of torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote In Kontrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 1:08pm
Pfffft. Now this is torque!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote In Kontrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Dambuster Dambuster wrote:

Diesels ARE known to have more torque than petrol engines, just go check it out for yourself.
 
Hence why large vehicles and trucks have them. Geek
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 4:00pm
You amateurs done't know what you are torqueing about.
 
 

Quote For commercial uses requiring towing, load carrying and other tractive tasks, diesel engines tend to have better torque characteristics. Diesel engines tend to have their torque peak quite low in their speed range (usually between 1600–2000 rpm for a small-capacity unit, lower for a larger engine used in a truck). This provides smoother control over heavy loads when starting from rest, and, crucially, allows the diesel engine to be given higher loads at low speeds than a gasoline engine, making them much more economical for these applications. This characteristic is not so desirable in private cars, so most modern diesels used in such vehicles use electronic control, variable geometry turbochargers and shorter piston strokes to achieve a wider spread of torque over the engine's speed range, typically peaking at around 2500–3000 rpm.

See what I mean Mr Magic [speed merchant] Man? As I said previously, rubbish in a road car without a Turbo charger. Wink
 

I should explain further as magic gets confused sometimes. Snigger, snigger!

 

I said diesels have lower torque in relation to an equivalent petrol engine.

 

That’s lower torque ‘in the higher part of the rev range’, where you need it in a road car.

 

It's hardly equivalent is it with fancy modified pistons, clever electronics and a massive turbo charger, to make up for the lower torque. [In the higher part of the rev range]

 

So why bother with all that technical trickery to make up for the deficiencies so you can have a diesel road car… just get a petrol one.

 

 Magic’s smelly Freelander is ideal for pulling a trailer full of cow manure though. Evil%20Smile

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

You amateurs done't know what you are torqueing about.
 
No matey, it is you who are talking out of your exhaust pipe I'm afraid... 
 
Quote
 See what I mean Mr Magic [speed merchant] Man? As I said previously, rubbish in a road car without a Turbo charger. Wink
 
And as I said you'd be hard pressed to find a diesel "road car" without a turbo charger. 
 
Quote

I should explain further as magic gets confused sometimes. Snigger, snigger!

 

I said diesels have lower torque in relation to an equivalent petrol engine.

 
Except they don't... A simple front page search of Google will give you plenty (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=torque+in+petrol+engine&btnG=Google+Search&meta=) It is you who is confused matey. You'd have to go up to a large petrol engine with corresponding fuel thirst and emission output to get the same sort of torque. Why do you think all the 4x4 makers sell diesels in the first place? Because they provide huge amounts of torque at low revs. If you want a similar powered petrol version then you are looking at 2.8/3.0 litres engines or more.
 
Quote

That’s lower torque ‘in the higher part of the rev range’, where you need it in a road car.

 
No you don't, that's wasted torque since you don't need all that turning force at such high revs, you need it in the low revs to be able to get to the high revs in the first place...
 
Quote  

It's hardly equivalent is it with fancy modified pistons, clever electronics and a massive turbo charger, to make up for the lower torque. [In the higher part of the rev range]

 
Read first, diesels have the higher torque where it matters and the rest is the same for both, you'd get turbo's and 'clever electronics' on those large engine petrol trucks.
 
Quote

So why bother with all that technical trickery to make up for the deficiencies so you can have a diesel road car… just get a petrol one.

 
No more technical trickery than a modern petrol equivalent and they have better torque than an equivalent petrol contrary to your belief, can be more economical than an equivalent petrol and are a all round hardier engine.
 
Quote
 Magic’s smelly Freelander is ideal for pulling a trailer full of cow manure though. Evil%20Smile
 
Not smelly at all, you need to catch up with the 21st century. And yes, it can pull that trailer because it has the better torque...Big%20smile I'll remember to dump some out the back when you are struggling up those hills in second gear, screaming away at high revs to keep up .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote In Kontrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 5:23pm
How about we have a test?
 
Get 2 engines, 1 diesel and 1 petrol and see which one rips someone's arm off using torque first! (obviously at the same RPM to make it fair). Tongue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dambuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 6:45pm
Must I add that Diesels can't generally go over 4500 rpm vs 6500 rpm on petrol engines. To be honest, I never drive at high revs (since I get the power I need at low revs).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dodgy-alan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Hot_Charlie Hot_Charlie wrote:

Originally posted by Dambuster Dambuster wrote:

Skoda , does anyone here find them hot? Good looking?
Just ask Clarkson & Co, they'll put them all as 'seriously uncool' (speaking of which, does anyone here know when the show will be back on? On what channel?) on their wall, nah but it is true that there's some VW technology involved so they're ok reliability wise.


SOME VW technology eh? Skoda Octavia - it's a VW Golf with a bigger boot a different body, and a couple of grand off the price. Who'd have though 10 years ago a Skoda would also have the most advanced gearbox available in a family car either?

As for small Skodas, the old model Fabia can't be faulted. You can even get a hot hatch version of it which is only Gp9 (still prohibitively pricey for a new driver! ), and does 53mpg. . Some decent other Fabias - a 1.2 Classic is Gp1!


My Particular Skoda has NO VW technology in it at all, Its 22 years old and still runs as sweet as a nut, the front suspension has been dropped, the camber altered, It handles like a go-kart. in addition the head has been skimmed and ported and the carb re jetted. still returns 35 mpg and great fun to drive.

The light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train coming the other way !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2009 at 9:05pm
Good brakes as well to be parked on a hill like that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2009 at 9:38am

This was supposed to be tongue in cheek, but seen as you're getting argumentative again... [I thought I was bad Confused ]

 

And as I said you'd be hard pressed to find a diesel "road car" without a turbo charger.   

 
Exactly my point, to make up for the deficiencies at the top end they fit a turbo, which provides power at the top end.

 

As for your handy Google links, er... yes, they produce more Torque at the low end [low revs] but to compensate for the lack of torque at the top end, compared with a petrol engine, they fit turbo chargers and torque electronic control and shorter piston strokes. As I said, an unmodified diesel without the technology I just mentioned has less torque at the top end.

 

No you don't, that's wasted torque since you don't need all that turning force at such high revs, you need it in the low revs to be able to get to the high revs in the first place...

 

No it’s not wasted torque actually Magic, without it you will never achieve the higher speeds. In a petrol engine the option to ‘change down’ and increase revs and torque is always there, plus the higher top speed advantage.

 

You were extolling the virtues of your diesel engine, in regard to out performing other cars on the road, why do you think F1 cars are devoid of diesel engines and rev at an astonishing 18,000 rpm.

 

Quote Formula 1 Power figures are known but jealously guarded, but 800bhp seems to be a good average these days. That's an awful lot from a three-litre engine, but surprisingly little of it is due to the amount of torque they produce - the ability to achieve very high revs is far more important.

 

It's clear from all this that the best way of getting power from an engine is to persuade it to produce lots of torque at very high revs.

 

 

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/technical/636.asp

 

Quote "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.

 

You might overtake with your diesels low end torque quite impressively at low speed, but I match that with my petrol engine by dropping to a lower gear and revving higher, and then of course due to my higher torque at high revs I achieve a higher top speed.

 

Notice they fit turbo’s and shorter piston strokes to diesels to give them a higher torque at the top end, but they don't bother to modify petrol engines to match a diesels torque at the lower revs. Simply becuase they don't percieve an issue.

 

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

 

I think you are in love with diesels, quaint really. Big%20smile

 

Being serious for a second... Diesels have a lot of advantages in this environmentally friendly age, and a diesel designed with a turbo charger and other measures to increase torque at the top end. To make up for the deficiencies inherent in the technology, have a lot going for them. Therefore if economy and reliability is the priority it's prbably a good choice.

 
Now onto Freelander reliability... .
 
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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2009 at 1:07pm

Freelander 1 reliabiliity was perhaps suspect, more with the original 1.8 petrol versions though, not the 2.0 diesel - never had any issues with ours. Onto a Freelander 2 now which is even better...

And you're still out with the above anyway since, as you said yourself, we're not speeding so any extra torque (which you still don't get in a petrol unless you're looking at a large engine) at those high speeds will not be used... Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2009 at 3:35pm

What slow speeds, only pansies like you drive everywhere like a snail.

 

which you still don't get in a petrol unless you're looking at a large engine

 

You do actually, it’s called a gear lever, you change down and access the higher torque at the top end.

 

Its apples and pears, if you compare a turbo diesel 2.0 litre with a turbo petrol 2.0 litre I wonder what the max talk would be?

 

I know the Audi A5 2.0 petrol has approaching the same torque as you quote for your Freelander WITHOUT a turbo.

 
 
 
 
 
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