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taildraggin68 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 12:23am
First off, beautiful plane......I really want to love and fly her.  


But......

I'm not sure of the flight model, but in v4 it is terrible.  No elevator authority.  Have to get to 120mph with full elevator deflection before ANY rotation will occur, and then it's straight up into a stall because there is no authority to counteract the pitch movement.  Cannot trim the plane as the trim delays and presets....the trim wheel moves with input, but the indicator continues to move to a predetermined amount.  Yes one must adjust for power changes, but power changes are all or nothing in regards to aircraft attitude.

Also of note, there is no illumination of the gps/radio/wx at night...no digits, no gps, nothing...sort of hard to do IFR if you lose the ability to even see what approach you are entering if it gets cloudy or dark out.


I really do want to love this plane...it is beautiful.   But a painful release version.
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 8:21am
I can't even start the thing.
However, if I load from a running default aircraft and bypass the start routine, I find that everything you say here is correct. The trim wheel has a mind of its own. Taking off with the elevator trim at T/O results in an initial climb like that of an F16. Even the promotional video shows a very steep climb out. Once free of the surly bounds of Earth the slightest touch on the trim wheel produces massive deflection. Level flight is impossible. I tried engaging the AP as I passed through level flight, the result was a series of loops.
I have become wary of new releases, but this one was sat in development, all priced up and ready to go, that I thought it might be ready to fly.
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 9:32am
I just tried setting P3Dv4 to "Simple Controls". It makes the aircraft easier to manage but the trim is still doing its own thing, only not quite so quickly. The AP will now hold a heading but engaging Alt results in a rapid pitch up that results in an inverted stall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taildraggin68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 11:37am
I did start a support ticket before starting this thread. I hope you have as well.

I think the devil in the flight model may be in the wing lift values. Converting the values to a graphic shows a very minute wing area compared to the rest of the aircraft along with no affect to the elevator by propwash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mithras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 11:47am
Well, my ailment is ... the Duchess runs at 7-9 fps. I thought I might have done somrthing very wrong, so began a new flight t the same location with my Alabeo Seminole at got my usual 34-6 fps. That is a massive difference. Back to the Duchess, back to 7-9 fps. 
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Delta558 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by taildraggin68 taildraggin68 wrote:


I think the devil in the flight model may be in the wing lift values. Converting the values to a graphic shows a very minute wing area compared to the rest of the aircraft along with no affect to the elevator by propwash.


The pic below shows the wing area as the sim sees it, and it is defined within the fde as 181 square ft.


The problem does not lie there. Also, if you slew into the air, you will find that the elevator has authority when airborne right down to the stall, slightly decreasing towards the lower end of the speed range but still effective.

The problem appears to be that something is preventing the nose from rotating when the aircraft is on the ground until a much higher speed than it should be. This is then leading to a massively out-of-trim situation immediately. The contact points have been checked and re-checked, the cg and CL are both in the correct place and should facilitate the nose rising, the thrust axis is slightly below the CG so again, should help the nose to rise but it doesn't want to!

As you can see, I am aware of the situation and looking into it.
Cheers,
Paul.
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taildraggin68 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taildraggin68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 2:40pm
Thanks for the feedback Paul. I know you will get it sorted.
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 12:09am
New version v1.001 seems to have solved the trim problem. Well done JF.
Now get the engines started ...
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Delta558 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 12:38am
And very shortly you should have a further (very minor) update which should solve the rotation speed and get it down to the correct area.

Thanks to taildraggin68 for taking a bit of time to look into the problem and point me in the right direction - yes, mate - I'm kicking myself!

Cheers,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 10:59pm
It is flying better, but the trim is still far too sensitive. The tiniest movement on controller, keyboard or mouse on the trim wheel or AP trim switch is still resulting in a massive change of pitch. This is especially a problem when engaging/disengaging the AP.
I also find that directional holds on the AP do not work unless ALT is also engaged
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 1:08am
If you open the aircraft.cfg file in notepad, what setting do you have in the [airplane_geometry] section for "elevator_trim_limit"?
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iflygary View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 5:01am
Originally posted by taildraggin68 taildraggin68 wrote:

First off, beautiful plane......I really want to love and fly her.  


But......

I'm not sure of the flight model, but in v4 it is terrible.  No elevator authority.  Have to get to 120mph with full elevator deflection before ANY rotation will occur, and then it's straight up into a stall because there is no authority to counteract the pitch movement.  Cannot trim the plane as the trim delays and presets....the trim wheel moves with input, but the indicator continues to move to a predetermined amount.  Yes one must adjust for power changes, but power changes are all or nothing in regards to aircraft attitude.

Also of note, there is no illumination of the gps/radio/wx at night...no digits, no gps, nothing...sort of hard to do IFR if you lose the ability to even see what approach you are entering if it gets cloudy or dark out.


I really do want to love this plane...it is beautiful.   But a painful release version.
Agreed on all of the above in addition to the fact that the flight dynamics are waaayyyyy off.  This thing climbs at 2000 fpm which is just insane.  Just not realistic.  Also it yellow lines constantly.  Real airplanes don't usually get into the yellow line except for in a dive.  I foresee several service packs on this little baby until it gets corrected.  I think it was released before it's time but hopefully Just Flight can get her right just as they did the Arrow III.  I do love the sound of her but right now that's about all I can say positive at the moment.  Also, can we get another N registration repaint besides the black one?????  Looking out the windows makes things feel as though the alpha channels are off.  I know they are not but there are tons of real world N repaints that are based on a white aircraft. I'm not totally feeling the black one.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 5:14am
Also,  I forgot to mention that the placard on the inside of the N registration model near the passenger door says G-BZRT.  Not sure if this is the case for all repaints of the model but at the moment I've only tested the N registration version.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 1:32pm
elevator_up_limit                             =  20.00                 
elevator_down_limit                           =  15.00                

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iflygary View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 2:10pm
I hate to be the fly in the ointment but I think the download link for this release should be removed until all of the major bugs are worked out. I get it, and I know it's not going to be perfect up release cause even the best of the best have to send out patches. But this release is a bit off the mark. I tried it again and it's a night and day difference going from the Arrow to the Duchess, then back to the Arrow. I feel like a beta tester flying this plane. I'm going to keep it in the virtual hangar until major improvements are made. I've always been a fan of Just Flight models but there in no fun or realism factor when flying this little model. Sorry guys I'm just being real when it comes to spending $41.99 on a payware model aircraft.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 2:23pm
Sorry, I meant *upon release
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by petesmiffy petesmiffy wrote:

elevator_up_limit                             =  20.00                 
elevator_down_limit                           =  15.00                



About 4 lines down from that - the elevator TRIM limit, should be 3.0 on the updated files - I think it was originally 10?

Originally posted by iflygary iflygary wrote:

Also it yellow lines constantly.  Real airplanes don't usually get into the yellow line except for in a dive


Gary, it is about 10kts fast across the power settings but you should check the power charts for the Duchess - a lot of the higher cruise power settings are right up touching that yellow line! The yellow line begins at 154kts, standard ISA max cruise power gives you 153kts at 5000ft and at ISA-20 puts you firmly inside the band at 157kts! Lower cruise settings from the chart (24/23) should give you the mid 140s and (as noted earlier) it's about 10kts fast at the moment.


Originally posted by iflygary iflygary wrote:

This thing climbs at 2000 fpm which is just insane. Just not realistic.


Again, it's out but nowhere near by as dramatic an amount as your comment would suggest: the aircraft currently manages a sustained max climb rate at sea level / max AUW of 1700fpm, real figure is a touch under 1300fpm. At lighter weights, the aircraft should make close to 2000fpm and that figure is in the charts so not at all an unrealistic climb rate for the aircraft.

Cheers,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by iflygary iflygary wrote:

I hate to be the fly in the ointment but I think the download link for this release should be removed until all of the major bugs are worked out. I get it, and I know it's not going to be perfect up release cause even the best of the best have to send out patches. But this release is a bit off the mark. I tried it again and it's a night and day difference going from the Arrow to the Duchess, then back to the Arrow. I feel like a beta tester flying this plane. I'm going to keep it in the virtual hangar until major improvements are made. I've always been a fan of Just Flight models but there in no fun or realism factor when flying this little model. Sorry guys I'm just being real when it comes to spending $41.99 on a payware model aircraft.

Gary

I have to agree with this. After the update the plane was glued to the runway on the take off roll. Pilot only, full fuel. Airborne at 90 knots, full back on the yoke, climbing like a rocket. The auto pilot trim goes haywire. Disappointed with this release.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 2:07am
Just installed v1.02 and nothing has changed. I have 5 different copies of the Arrow and the Warrior in P3D and XP11. Some of my favorite GA planes. What happened with this one? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 12:03pm
v1.02. On start one throttle locks at 15%. Have to use E+1+2 to regain control. Take off with Trim at T/O and lifts off fine, but at about 100-150 feet AGL it goes into Saturn V mode; trim all the way forward and it still climbs off the clock. Impossible to trim for level flight, or anything near it
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