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Anyone able to hand fly an approach in this thing?

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jfwharton View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 11:13pm
I recently purchased the JF L-1011 Pro and am beginning to regret my purchase.  At the moment I am trying to learn to fly this aircraft.  I am aware of the DLC system and am trying to hand fly ILS approaches to try to get the feel of this aircraft.  The controls on the aircraft are sluggish, I tried the suggested configurations in the manual of leveling off  at the final approach fix altitude, slowing to 150 and setting the flaps to 33.  At that point everything goes to ...... The aircraft rises because of the change of flaps, trim becomes virtually non existent so I end up pushing forward on the stick trying to get the aircraft down to altitude and pull back on the throttle to compensate for the lack of ability to trim.  So in the long run I'm finding this aircraft almost impossible to land due to the sluggish nature of the flight controls and the lag in engine response.  I would appreciate any suggestions and would love to find a link to a tutorial video to help me understand how this aircraft is supposed to function.  Right now I am very frustrated and as stated before am regretting my purchase of this aircraft.
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jfwharton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 2:01am
I've been trying to fly the ILS approach to 08 at KPHX.  Lowered the fuel load to less than what is in the tutorial flight for this aircraft so that my V speeds should be lower.  The airspeed and altitude control using the autopilot is horrible.  I'm flying a traffic pattern at 3,000 feet.  When making a turn from downwind to crosswind the altitude varies by 300 feet.  I'm using auto throttle and it keeps the airspeed high.  Once on final I configure while on autopilot and turn the autopilot off when approaching minimums.  At first I turned it off at about 1000 AGL thinking the aircraft was trimmed, but guess not as it did not continue on glide path.  Is there some trick to this aircraft or is it just that bad.  I have never had these types of issues with any other aircraft.
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jfwharton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 6:26pm
Could someone who has this aircraft and has figured out how to land it please offer some suggestions on how trim and configure this aircraft?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 8:03pm
Well I've tried to configure the aircraft on a long approach and save it so I can load the flight and practice approaches and landings.  NOT!  When I load the flight the engines are so slow coming online that the aircraft stalls.  Worthless.  BUT, I have figured out that this aircraft was apparently not designed to be hand flown, which is unfortunate.  I have been able to set up the ILS on autopilot and release the autopilot and auto throttle at about 300 feet and make a landing.  Not what I was expecting from this aircraft.  Very disappointing, but I will keep working on it.  I can't believe the L-1011 in real life was like this.  If it was it would never have flown.  I think the flight dynamics on this aircraft still need some work from Just Flight, but that is only my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 11:59pm
OK now I realize the issue and that is me!  The only large aircraft I have been flying in FSX has been the Just Flight C-130.  I haven't flown the large airliners because I didn't like the instrumentation, being an old C-130 pilot who is used to steam gauges.  So trying other airliners today I realize that I need time to learn how to handle them.  I fly turbo prop or prop aircraft mostly and they handle differently from jet airliners.  So sorry for my remarks above.  I did look to see if I could delete them but could not find out how.  So I decided to make this comment and definitely have my work cut out for me to learn to fly this L-1011 aircraft.
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ThomasAH View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThomasAH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 7:57am
I haven't really tackled this aircraft yet either, so I'd like to hear about your progress!
I'm usually flying GA, too. The only other big bird I spent more time with is the B377, which is much easier to fly.

But your questions in one of the other thread motivated me to do some more flying with the L-1011, and I think the DLC may cause some (but not all) of the symptoms you describe above. There are some youtube videos for the L-1011, which may help seeing how it works for other people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 3:13pm
I have been making progress.  Finding a video on how to disable DLC I tried that and was able to make a successful landing.  As to making an ILS approach and landing with DLC enabled, I have been able to start an initial descent after configuring flaps 33 and have been able to stabilize on glide path.  I am still having trouble figuring out how to initiate a flare as pulling back on the joystick all the way barely affects the aircraft.  I am trying to start pulling back earlier and trimming as I am pulling back but this proves to be a delicate balance as this aircraft is slow to react and when it starts reacting is hard to counter.  I end up leveling off at 300 feet over the approach end of the runway.  So any help would be appreciated from anyone who has broken the code on trimming and landing this aircraft with DLC enabled.
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jfwharton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 8:01pm
Anyone have any helpful suggestions?
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ThomasAH View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThomasAH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 7:37am
Maybe contact support and ask them to take a look at this thread? They may not be aware of your problems reported here and may have pointers to helpful documentation/tutorials/threads/...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 12:07am
I submitted a ticket to support regarding trying to manually fly an ILS approach with flaps 33 or greater.  We will see what they say.  Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nfinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 4:43am
The only way to manually land this aircraft successfully is as follows.

Do not extend flaps to more than 18-20 degrees or so.
Fly the approach a little faster to match flap extended speed.

doing this will guarantee a successful controllable landing.

DLC is not simulated correctly as extending flaps beyond this makes it uncontrollable during the most critical phase of flight.
Norbert Finger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 9:34am
Here's a video I filmed this morning of the Tristar landing using DLC throughout the approach. I started the film on the turn to finals, you will hear the call of 'Flaps 33' and from that point on it's all DLC.
Some things to bear in mind while watching it:
1) I haven't flown this aircraft since we finished development 3 years ago, purely because I've been too busy with other development work.
2) Following on from that and in the interest of full disclosure I'm not going to claim that this is my first landing this morning. It's actually the third approach I flew - first was rather messy, second I misjudged the ground effect and floated off into a go around.
3) Because of 1 and 2, it's not the tidiest of approaches. I started high and poorly lined up, had to lose a lot of height so you get a descent rate warning part way through. However, I think that is beneficial in that you are able to see use of the DLC, changing the amount of spoiler (and hence descent rate) rather than just a 'hold the stick in one place throughout' sort of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e6NyHvEiHo&feature=youtu.be

Originally posted by nfinger nfinger wrote:


DLC is not simulated correctly as extending flaps beyond this makes it uncontrollable during the most critical phase of flight.


DLC is simulated as correctly as we could within the confines of the sim, and it works (as seen in the video, hardly uncontrollable). Have a look at the first few responses on this PPrune thread - https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/93068-tristar-s-direct-lift-control.html - Posts 2 and 3 seem particularly relevantLOL

You need to be ahead of the aircraft, speed control is critical and also if you are just jumping in and flying be aware that it loads in the sim near MTOW so for a quick circuit you need to shed a fair bit of weight. It is easier to land the lighter you are, so for getting used to it I'd really suggest zero payload and about 30% fuel.

Hope that is of use,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nfinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 11:08am
To clarify, you use spoiler to control altitude with DLC?. I will try this and let you know outcome.

Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:


3) Because of 1 and 2, it's not the tidiest of approaches. I started high and poorly lined up, had to lose a lot of height so you get a descent rate warning part way through. However, I think that is beneficial in that you are able to see use of the DLC, changing the amount of spoiler (and hence descent rate) rather than just a 'hold the stick in one place throughout' sort of thing.
Norbert Finger
Noble Air HC Australia
www.nobleair.net
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThomasAH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 12:08pm
Paul, thank you for the information and the video!

Originally posted by nfinger nfinger wrote:

To clarify, you use spoiler to control altitude with DLC?. I will try this and let you know outcome.

I understand that the yoke controls the spoiler when DLC is active.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 12:40pm
Attitude should be set before engaging DLC - there will be small pitch changes through speed / thrust and the yoke but they are minimal so begin with a good attitude that you will be able to land with.

Once the flaps are at or above 33, DLC is engaged (spoilers will automatically extend to 8 degrees from memory) and you then use the pitch axis of your yoke to control the spoilers and thus altitude. Forward yoke will extend the spoilers further and give increased descent rate. Rearwards yoke will retract the spoilers and give reduced rate of descent. The pitch axis effectively becomes a 'sink' axis, with proportional spoiler applied depending on the amount of yoke used.

Through that video, I was making adjustments to the spoiler using the pitch axis of the yoke. It feels wrong to begin with because you maintain the same 'view' out of the window but use the VSI to give a reference and try to anticipate a bit more than perhaps you would in a 'normal' aircraft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 3:33pm
Thank you all very much for your responses and for the video.  It seems to confirm what I was discovering when trying to do a manual approach with DLC engaged.  Because pitch control is more restricted once DLC engages power has to be used to augment to help control vertical speed but since changes do not occur as quickly you have to stay well ahead of the aircraft, apparently more so than flying a "normal" approach.  Also I have been practicing my manual ILS approach and landing at 63% fuel capacity so that makes a difference.  It's just a very different way to fly an approach and landing.  Will have to develop better techniques to make it work.  Thanks again.  I'll keep working at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 9:19pm
Well I've come to the following conclusion.  I would never want to fly this aircraft in real life if it behaves the way this simulation does.  When DLC is engaged on final approach you have to MAN HANDLE the aircraft.  Constantly pushing forcefully or pulling forcefully on the yoke to attempt to keep the aircraft on glide path.  The engines are very slow to respond.  I can get it down and land it but I have to fight every inch of the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dparaska Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2018 at 3:33pm
Hi
I just joined the forum. I have many hours in the JF L-1011 and love it. Turn off the DLC. Adjust the simulators control settings by trial
and error. On approach use the flaps, touchdown 33' flap setting, speed
120-130 kts. Use the throttle to adjust the airspeed. I have found the throttle/engines are very fast responding. There is plenty of power to hold the plane off the runway to make a good landing where YOU want it to land.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfwharton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by dparaska dparaska wrote:

Hi
I just joined the forum. I have many hours in the JF L-1011 and love it. Turn off the DLC. Adjust the simulators control settings by trial
and error. On approach use the flaps, touchdown 33' flap setting, speed
120-130 kts. Use the throttle to adjust the airspeed. I have found the throttle/engines are very fast responding. There is plenty of power to hold the plane off the runway to make a good landing where YOU want it to land.

I agree that the aircraft handles well when DLC is turned off.  I just wanted to see if I could get comfortable doing a manual approach and landing with DLC turned on.  I can but I have to fight with the aircraft when doing so.  Guess I'll keep trying or make it part of my before landing checklist to turn DLC off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 12:21am
I'm going to give you a quote (with source) which may seem fairly irrelevant as it is to do with a common warbird, however I think the main thrust of the comment has much to do with the 'problem' of DLC:

http://airbum.com/pireps/PirepMustangBurch.7.html

The Mustang was built to be flown by well-trained 200-hour pilots. I repeat, well trained, and if a pilot gets that same sort of training, the Mustang will be a piece of cake. On the other hand, if you approach the Mustang figuring you can whip it because you have thousands of hours in Bonanzas and the like, it'll chase you all over the airport. The P-51 has characteristics that nothing in civilian aviation can prepare you for.

well-trained 200-hour pilots. For a warbird that flies using bog-standard, basic controls but is a bit more powerful and responsive. Contrast that with the Tristar in which you have an aircraft that uses a non-standard flight response during the landing phase. You need to learn it, to take time with it. You sound as if you have spent some time already, but I spent an absolute age during development getting used to it. A few years later I shoot a quick vid and it's like riding a bike - once back into it it works fine. The more precise you can be initially setting up your approach, the less pushing and pulling you will have to do.

This is a study-level aircraft, not something that your regular sim-pilot can get in and expect to get right immediately just because of the number of sim-hours accrued. It takes time to re-learn your approach with DLC but it is very satisfying to accomplish that landing.
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