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One Eleven 1.3 strange handling

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Renidroc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 10:11am
Fantastic to see the P3D v4 update for the One-Eleven.

However, the handling seems completely different to the previous version in both v4 and v3 particularly with the BA variant. Seems I have to put in an awful lot of elevator trim to get off the deck and in turns it is almost like the aircraft is fighting back.

Anybody else noticed any differences?

Regards
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote voju24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 11:01am
Well generally the handling was okay for me except:
I did also need some more trim than expected for TO but more bothersome for me was that I couldn't get the aircraft to slow down on approach (admittedly during descent) even with speed brakes fully out. According to this thread http://www.pprune.org/questions/76344-flying-bac-111-a.html it shouldn't be that hard to slow down with speed brakes fully out.
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Delta558 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 11:03am
Shouldn't be any difference in that area - there were only two (very minor) adjustments, one to the drag at higher mach numbers and the other to the pitch on the final two stages of flap. As you don't take off with full flap, that should not cause any difference and will only really be seen when landing. The aircraft has always needed a large amount of nose-up trim for take off, from memory it is 3 notches on the trim gauge. It is set as per the real-world flight manual.

Cheers,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote voju24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 11:51am
Yeah I can't say if it's different. Before I couldn't complete the tutorial, because the autopilot wouldn't work for me and now I completed it and it worked fine, but just on approach I was way too fast on the GS and no chance to slow down. It might have been the same before, I just didn't really use it much due to the very confusing autopilot, but that is luckily sorted out now :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 3:27pm
I agree the handling is poor, especially on takeoff. If you put a realistic payload in (the sim initialises empty) you need at least +6 deg trim and a lot of airspeed to rotate (around 160 knots). But once airborne you now have too much nose up trim and need to trim nose down to avoid stalling. This isn't helped by the fact that the trim wheel and trim indicator do not agree with each other nor the trim tooltip display. For example if the trim wheel is +4, the tool tip reads +5 and the indicator shows +6.5. The differences get worse as trim increases.

I think the elevator has far too little authority. You shouldn't need nose up full elevator to rotate. Takeoff trim should be set so you are in trim with takeoff flap at around V2+10. But at that setting you can't takeoff at all.

I don't remember it being like this on initial release, but as the AP was nonsensical and so much else wrong in that version I gave up with it until the SP was finally released.

Lateral stability is excessive. It should be more or less neutral. If you set a bank angle and release the wheel to neutral the sim rolls wings level. It should roughly maintain bank, you shouldn't need a large wheel input to keep the aircraft banked.

Lots of minor stuff in the VC is unrepresentative of any real aircraft, let alone a BAC 1-11. 

There is disappointingly still so much wrong with this sim. I've submitted a list as a support ticket.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 3:50pm
Thanks Kevin. The latest SP should have addressed all of the bugs that had been reported to us and logged, but we will investigate your list and issue further fixes as required.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 4:42pm
Thanks Martyn,

For info I've only flown the BA and BEA versions, if that makes any difference to things.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Renidroc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 8:44pm
Thanks Kevin!!! Was beginning to think it was just me! Agree 100% with your findings on trim and rollback.

Hope they can fix this as the 1-11 is an old favourite of mine, saw one burst it tyres landing in Jersey back in the late 80's and also flew jumpseat from Heathrow to Jersey in one.

Will keep my eyes peeled for updates.

Thanks all 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 12:04am
Hi Kevin, I'll address a couple of your points straight off:

On the lateral stability, the rolling back only seems to occur at higher weights. When empty or lightweight there is very little into-turn bank needed. It also seems to occur more at higher bank angles and I think it may be dihedral effect rather than the dihedral angle of the wing which is causing this: the wing has a dihedral of 3 degrees, which would add to the stability of the aircraft and its desire to return to level flight but only by a very tiny amount. Because of the weight / steep angle situation, I think it is actually the dihedral effect which comes into play when there is sideslip involved and with the relationship between the relatively aft centre of lift and the forward CoG when loaded it's strongly noticeable in certain circumstances. Certainly something I can look at.

You mention that the sim initialises empty; it comes across as surprise that it should - it either loads empty, full or there is a seperate load manager. The latter doesn't exist for the 1 11, it was a choice of the first two and I'd rather let people load their own passengers and baggageLOL

On to the biggie - the trim. I cannot comment on the gauge / wheel / tooltip problem - that is outside my preserve. What I can tell you is that I set it up to align with the gauge on the panel. That is what you are looking at as a primary, so that is what the trim relates to. In my earlier post, I mentioned 3 units nose-up (from memory). That was wrong - take-off is the full 5 units and I will say now that I have never found it out-of-trim while accelerating and climbing through at least the first thousand feet. 2 notches of flap, 5 of trim and either full or empty you put the nose to a point in the sky and it stays there with no need to adjust either trim or pitch.
The effect of elevator v trim (and, I suspect, your comment about too little elevator authority) - please bear in mind that the elevator is the smaller of the two moving surfaces involved and, even though it goes to a higher angle, the moving horizontal stabiliser is far more effective than your usual trim tab. Therefore, the small movement of trim gives a relatively large feel difference. Through the 'normal' flight envelope, that trim should always be in the 0 - 5 range on the gauge, so a relatively small movement but it is a big effect and therefore it is more important that you are 'in trim' throughout.

I'm not entirely happy with Vr and V2, they are a bit high for a fully-laden aircraft but until your post today the only adverse comments (in almost a year) about the fde were about mach drag and the angle at landing. They are both fixed, I'll look at the stability and rotation speeds once I've got the Warrior finishedWink

Cheers,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimos87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 9:30pm
I've still got issues with it on approach when you turn off the ap the trim is set high, when you turn it off it obviously starts to climb but when you trim it down to take off range it just plummets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 12:07am
Hi Paul,

The 1-11 dihedral is not unusually excessive so that isn't the cause. Lateral stability is the combined effect of roll stability (dihedral, sweepback, etc) and directional (fin and rudder area). Nor should weight affect it much. I first noticed it when i was flying empty. Aircraft just don't roll out of a turn like that when you let go of the wheel. If they did the wheel would act more like the steering wheel in a car.

If there was a load manager then loading empty wouldn't matter. Then you can simply enter pax, cargo and fuel. But as there isn't it's best to load the sim with a typical payload in aircraft.cfg. Entering weights at each station every flight is a pain. The real problem comes in testing because almost everyone will fly it as it loads and never fly with a proper weight distribution. The 748 was similar in this respect, and I missed that before release like everyone else simply because I assumed it would have a payload.

The CG feels too far forward. That would explain the reluctance to rotate. I know you mentioned an FSX CG bug earlier, I'm not ware of that one, but still the CG should show somewhere between the leading and trailing edges of the stupid diagram they use. The 1-11 CG is always forward of the "leading edge" as drawn in the diagram. That might be misleading but it doesn't feel right.

Re the trim. I'm well aware the stab is more powerful than the elevator, thanks. But elevator is no less powerful than it would be if the tailplane was fixed and you had trim tabs. You fly with the elevator, not the stab trim. If Vr is too high then either the elevator is not powerful enough or the CG is too far forward. I normally use the trim wheel units to set trim, and as that doesn't agree with the indicator then I was confused by which to set. The manual says +3 deg. If you set that on the trim wheel you get about +5 on the indicator, the same as you use. But I felt I needed around +5 on the trim wheel to rotate and takeoff loaded. That's about +8 on the indicator, by my estimate. Thinking back I didn't find trim position affected roation speed much. Whatever I set it rotated at about 160 knots. It gets really tricky if you over do the trim and then it noses up into a stall soon after lift off. The stick pusher kicks in hard and you are going to hit the deck, regardless.

In an airliner the first 1000 feet or so wouldn't be accelerating and you should be already trimmed for that initial climb, ready to accelerate and clean up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 5:07am
I've had the thing go completely out of control on me numerous times, one of which was particularly annoying because it resulted in it rolling into an unrecoverable dive whilst doing an Air Hauler flight, needless to say, I could have done without smashing one of my fleet's aeroplanes into the ground simply because I tried to use the autopilot to intercept a localiser. It definitely has some issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimos87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 8:13am
Yes, i only fly with air haulier now too, so it's infuriating to be crashing on finals for no reason. what happened yesterday was in landing config with flaps down at 150 knots, even with the autopilot on it just started to descend by itself. I have added a different autopilot gauge panel because I  don't like the default one, it sometimes only shows me pitch and I like to see v/s it worked fine with it in v3 but in v4 it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I'm seriously thinking now I'm going to have to ground the fleet which is irritating because of its the workhorse of my operations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Edwards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 11:44am
Hi folks,

same trouble for me as well since the update; previous version was fine.  Feels like CoG too far fwd, needing so much trim and higher speed than normal at Vr/Vus to get off the ground then into nose aggressively rising (no doubt due to too much nose up trim).  On landing from stabilised approach the nose aggressively rotates downwards as soon as the mains touch from even a gentle landing with very low RoD. 

Hope JF can offer a solution.

EDIT: just uninstalled 1.04 and reinstalled 1.01 in FSX.   All good and back to normal with 101; shame as really wanted the BEA skin!

Best wishes

Nige
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 2:33pm
Okay, so if the original files are fine then more has been changed than was intended - not sure how but we'll have to look into it to try and work out what's gone wrong. As I said at the start of this thread, there were only two very minor adjustments made to the fde and neither should have had any such effect as that noted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimos87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 2:57pm
I'm making a video to try and show the problem i'm having on landing i just did a quick google and i might be landing to slow it says 193 knots for approach in the 500 i'm doing it at 155 so i will test that next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimos87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 8:13pm
https://youtu.be/Rd_ZABQ-hx4
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Renidroc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 8:52pm
Hi folks, 

Great to see there is still action on this post. 

I have to say that no matter what anyone says, this is not the same bird as before. Interesting seeing the elevators twitching on your video. I have also had the same twitching on the rudder too.

I used to see these taking off in Jersey all the time but fear that would not be the case had they been the 1.3 version which struggles with the runway length.

Here's hoping to a quick resolution

Cheers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 10:29pm
Thank you for the video, very useful - some comments to start with, written whilst watching so they are just blunt thoughts that may help us:

What weight were you flying at? It will make a difference to the stall speed. Also, the bank angle - 20 or 30 degrees? Again, the approach to the stall from roughly 1m30 was all banked so the speed will be above that documented for a stall in level flight in that configuration.

A fair time is then spent towards what appears to be the back end of the drag curve - high AoA, relatively low airspeed, flaps (so drag as well as lift) - it's kind of well-flown, the speed is never going to build in that situation but it can be maintained until something steps in to increase the drag or decrease the lift. I don't know your throttle RPM setting but probably low to mid 90s?

10m35 - again, you are flying it around banked with minimum flap on the edge of the stall. Then you put the gear down so drag is added - it will stall. Indications of a stall are increasing sink rate, buffet (not modelled here but something I really would like to see modelled more in FS) and decreased control authority. The stick shaker would probably not (I'm not certain in real life, but it won't in FS) operate here - the primary cause of the stall is loss of lift because of banking of the aircraft. Any of the other situations on their own (drag, AoA, thrust/speed) would be okay, but the angle of bank decreases the lift so it stalls despite being under the AoA for the stick shaker to operate. This isn't a study-level sim, if it were then the stick shaker would probably have been thoroughly recreated. I would also have had more time with the fde LOL

You then try to recover by levelling the wings (10:40, sensible) but the aircraft hasn't recovered fully by the point you start raising the nose (11:00)

Okay, so onto the landing - you're still blipping into and out of the stall tat was the subject of the previous comment. You'll never get a nice landing when partially stalled. One 'problem' with the 111 approach and landing is the attitude, it should be very flat. People that are not used to it will try and maintain a nose-high attitude and flare it like a normal aircraft. Watch some vids of the real thing on YouTube - keep the speed above the stall and accept the level attitude (initial release was not so good on this, that was one of the adjustments I made). On the approach, it's common to be nose-down, levelling the nose with the smallest of flares.

Having had the briefest of flights with the latest release, I can see that there are problems which should not be there. I'll get to them, but I'm away for a week or so from this evening (holidays, RIAT beckons!) so please do not expect an instant fix - if the files from the initial release work well then use those if you can, I'll look at this as soon as I have time, work out what went wrong, then fix it!

Cheers,
Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimos87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 7:56am
I think I was fully loaded with payload but had about 30 % fuel when I took off. I thought the 1-11 had stall protection where it forced the nose down and you had to turn the knob in the cockpit tot turn it back off? 
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