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Arrow with SP2

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BeaverDriver View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 9:53pm
Hey guys,
OK, well I have to say the handling of this airplane is outstanding. Both in the air and on the ground the airplane feels very good. It's a delight to fly.

On the sounds though, I can't see/hear any difference at all. Now I did fully uninstall the previous version then did a clean install of the new version, so hopefully there's no lingering issues from the SP1 version. it sounds good on the ground and during the throttle up for takeoff (one caveat to the ground sound - see down), but in the air, I throttled back to 25"/2500 for climb (a typical climb setting for this aircraft) and could not tell any difference in pitch. Throttling back further for a cruise of 23"/2300 at 1500 ft again showed no difference in sound from full power. I had to get back to 18.5" before I could hear any difference at all. I'm not sure if that's in the actual sound files or how the sounds are coded to the engine power settings that is the issue here.

Now one other thing I noticed was in taxiing. The lowest the rpm's would go at idle was 1200. What surprised me though was just on a hunch I pulled the prop lever back from full fine and that brought the rpm's right down to about 700. In a constant speed, prop aircraft, once you get below about 15" manifold pressure, the prop should be in a fully fine pitch and below 15" you are controlling the rpm's directly with throttle. This one appears to not get to full fine pitch until right down to a low idle. With the prop lever in the fully fine position, the engine should be able to idle at 700 (roughly - they all differ a wee bit but not too much from there).

Anyway, that's what I've found. It might help to have a couple of others check for these issues as well to make sure I didn't botch the update or install. Hope this helps.

Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 9:54pm
PS - I have to say the graphics also are second to none. Very, very good job on those!
Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taildraggin68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 11:49pm
+1 on the sounds, just not hearing any real change especially when pulling power from take off to cruise.  There should be a noticeable pitch change.  Aside from that and BeaverDriver's fine prop issue (same here) this really is a superb offering.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 8:36am
Hi chaps,

SP2 includes an updated sound cfg file which was provided to us by TSS following their assessment of all the customer feedback that was collated and sent to them following release. I'll continue to send them any feedback to see if further improvements can be made, but unfortunately I lack enough knowledge about sound-sets to take a look myself.

I'll investigate the low RPM/pitch issue.

Thanks
Martyn

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 10:36am
OK, well, I guess if others like what they have for the sounds, anything I say isn't going to change their minds. My assessment is based on a whole lot of years of RW experience in light to medium weight aircraft, but maybe that's a detriment in the FS world. It just seems logical to me though, that if you add gas, you'll hear the engine rpm's increasing, and if you remove it, you'll hear them decreasing. That seems true on every engine of any car or airplane I've ever operated. I'm curious as to why TSS doesn't see/hear that themselves. The other thing they are missing is a very distinct wind sound. Light GA aircraft of this vintage almost have their engine sounds drowned out by the wind as they are anything but "clean" by today's comparison.

On the RPM thing, change your min governed rpm setting (in the propeller section) to 1200. That solves one issue, but then you need to add a line in there for the minimum rpm and set that to about 700. That should fix that issue right up.

One other thing I noticed but haven't had time to experiment with is I couldn't start the engine due to a "low voltage" alert, yet I loaded the aircraft from scratch. I did notice the Beacon was on (yes, the fuel switch was on, the engine was primed, etc. ;) ) and am wondering if that was the source of the low voltage? It shouldn't be. The flying school on the field I work at has actually hard wired their beacons on because students often forget to turn them on (yeah, what's a checklist?? <LOL>). The engine should still start fine as there's very little current draw from them. As I say, I've not had time to experiment with that one yet.

On the rest of the aircraft Martyn, you've hit a home run. I think you offer up a very serious level of competition to another developer out there who is very prolific but isn't as interested in getting it right as you are, particularly with systems modeling. Your graphics are every bit as good, if not better and frankly I could see you leap frogging those guys as the leading GA aircraft builder. Kudos to you as well for admitting that you actually don't know something well enough to do (i.e. doing the sounds yourself). I wish more developers had your honesty. I would encourage you to keep going with these projects. You do have what it takes, but you do need to get the sound issue sorted out to get "there". Just my honest opinion on this.
Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 11:16am
+1 with the Sounds.

Giving another Feedback about the sound of the variable pitch prop also:
@ Checkup Procedure on the Ground, you have to drag the Prop lever 3 times from 2000 to 1500 RPM to make the oil fluid before start. To make clear what I mean check out the video bekow at approx 3:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9IsL2Ild8I

I don´t know how complicated it is with the sound system of FSX/Prepar3d but the sound was simulated superb in A2A´s Piper Comanche like in the real life.

Greetings,
Jens




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 12:16pm
I have to agree with Glenn once again on the sounds. IMHO, the sound files have gotten worse, not better. Prior to the updated sounds, on engine run-up, once you advanced the throttle to 2000 rpms you would noticed an increase in sound. Sitting on the ground in a real aircraft, advancing the throttle to 2000 rpms creates a quite NOTICABLE increase in sound as you are listening for any drops in magneto changes. With the old sound file, while there were no changes in sounds while doing magneto checks, you certainly could hear that nicer increase in engine sounds. Now with SP2, 2000 rpms sounds quite muffled.

Back to Glenn's point, you have to pull the throttles way back before you hear any change in sound pitch. Please, please, please fix the sound files. Thanks!

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 3:23pm
I have been holding back on purchase, essentially because of the sounds issues. A large portion of the noise in such GA planes comes from the propeller itself. Any change in blade pitch on a constant speed prop should have a marked effect on the sounds. You should also be able to hear the drop in rpm caused by the magneto check during run-up checks. The A2A GAs and constant speed propeller aircraft have this spot on.

I would love to add this to my collection of GA planes...

A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 4:34pm
But to say also something positive. The flight model is very good. Especially the little nervous behaviour at lower speeds during start and landing is typical for the Arrow and is very good simulated.
Though the torque effect at start is maybe a little bit too brutal...
But maybe this is only my feeling.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iflygary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 2:05am
Originally posted by alehead alehead wrote:

I have been holding back on purchase, essentially because of the sounds issues. A large portion of the noise in such GA planes comes from the propeller itself. Any change in blade pitch on a constant speed prop should have a marked effect on the sounds. You should also be able to hear the drop in rpm caused by the magneto check during run-up checks. The A2A GAs and constant speed propeller aircraft have this spot on.

I would love to add this to my collection of GA planes...

A

My thoughts exactly! I didn't want to mention the competitor's name here but they certainly have mastered the small nuances relating to their sound files and it totally changes the immersion factor. I don't want to belabor the point because Martyn and the crew are working extremely hard to get everything else right. I'm just baffled as to how a sound specialty company can't fix the sound issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 7:11am
yes.

I know they are working hard on this plane and I was sooo happy as I read that Just flight is building this plane. And it is gorgeous in most ways. This is also not meant as flaming the whole work that they´ve done but a constructive feedback for Martyn and collegues, what our observation is. I think this is worthy for every dev, isn´t it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 9:12am
I have read so many good reviews regarding the support of this particular product. I really hope the sounds can be nailed, as the engine/prop sounds in aircraft of this class are a major factor in immersion. I apologise for mentioning the "competition", it is just the fact that they are so well known for their sound immersion, at least in my mind. Now, if TSS can nail this, then the plane has everything to become legendary. I have been watching loads of Youtube material on this particular aircraft and it would appear that the team here has pretty much nailed everything else as well as giving us the ability to put our expensive GPS avionics toys in there too!

I will probably get this over the weekend anyway and show some confidence in the team to get the sounds nailed.

All the best to Martyn and the rest of the Just Flight team.

Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 9:22am
The Arrow III does have a 200hp engine, so it is a little more powerful, at least 10% more so, than the 150/160/180hp Continental-powered aircraft out there. Maybe that is why you sense the torque more?

A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 11:20am
Hi alehead

I meant the torque comparing to the real aircraft :)
I've flown many hours the real one. But I am sure aware the that the model deepness can't be reach with such a simulator due to boundaries in prepar3d/ fsx itself. And Martyn&Co have to always keep an eye on Performance that not only People with a Quantum Computer are able to use this plane.

Greetings,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 11:45am
Yeah, we have to be careful we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The airplane itself is outstanding IMO. The prop governing issue I mentioned is pretty easily fixed. The sounds mystify me though as I have another airplane (prop) that TSS did and the sounds are great in it. You get a change in sound pitch with every change in power setting, so why they can't/aren't doing it with this one is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is they have had a turnover in staff and the new people aren't as good at coding. I will say that almost every airplane in the past couple of years from a certain 'prolific' competitor has had similar issues (and I don't think they use TSS, but I'm not sure - they don't give credits) but it's not nearly as bad. Usually once you get down to cruise power you hear the difference. With the Arrow, it's not until you get to a powered descent setting that you hear any change. If they get that sorted then this airplane will vault to the top of the heap in an instant in every respect.

On the torque issue, it's not something I've noticed as being an issue. Torque is a funny thing, particularly in FSX. IRL I spent a career in 180's, 185's, Beavers and Otters and if you want to see torque... Wink . Now I was on floats 90% of the time so we got a full dose of what torque is in those machines, but even in the 172 the procedure was the same. You started out with full right rudder on the takeoff run and it wasn't until you were pretty much on the step (think of a motorboat with a planing hull as it ploughs through the water - once it's actually planing, that would be the equivalent to being on the step in a seaplane) that your rudder would be close to centre again. So yeah, you do have lots of torque with these things. In FSX though, friction is not modeled at all well, so if you model in torque then it might be reasonably accurate in the air, but on the ground it presents problems. You tend to go sideways with it if a lot of torque is modeled. Other than compromising and reducing the amount of torque that should actually be there, there's not much a developer can do about this. You either have it correct in the air, or controllable on the ground, but you can't easily get both. Again, that's because ground friction is not well modeled in FSX. So it's a balancing act. In my setup, Martyn has struck a good balance I feel, but I only have my system to go by. If you find you are going sideways on the ground then yes there is a problem. If you just need a lot of right rudder initially, but the aircraft tracks straight, then that's reasonably accurate, or as best as can be got. By time you reach rotation speed, you shouldn't need much rudder, although there will be some.

Anyway, appreciate the comments in reply here. I'm glad I'm not the only one finding this to be an issue. My complaint at this point is definitely not with Martyn. Man, if every developer was as good as Martyn about wanting to get their product right, we'd be in heaven as far as FSX is concerned. He's definitely one of the good guys here. I just hope we/he can convince TSS that they need to overhaul the sounds, and while they're at it, add the prop sounds (as one person commented when they showed the video of the run-up) as that too is important. Let's wait and see what shakes out. I still have a lot of confidence, and once you get one right, the rest get easier. Wouldn't surprise me to see Martyn quickly become the king of the GA world in FSX, and rightly so.
Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 12:49pm
Thanks for the very good explanation about the torque/friction dependencies in the sim. That makes sense. Now that I understand the technical background why it is in the sim like this, I am starting to think that sometimes the "real life" is easier then the Simulation. Because in Reality you have physically everything (like friction e.g.) by default and you don´t have to think about that, just reacting to the actual conditions.
So I come to the conclusion that you have to think about everything in the sim and that the devs have a really hard job :)
(Which I knew before for sure)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 1:23pm
<LOL> No, it's a lot harder in real life Smile. In the sim if you go sideways hard enough/fast enough, you drift off the runway. IRL if you do that, you crash. The latter can be rather hard on the body, if you get my drift (pun intended - sorry).

One thing I did forget to mention regarding torque is if you had a significant crosswind, especially from the left, that will amplify the turning effect on the ground. You can get situations in FSX where it's just not possible to hold it on the runway (at that point you change your weather, your location, or do what we do IRL - go have a coffee and wait for the wind to settle down Wink. So if you think you're seeing a lot more torque than others are talking about, check your winds and make sure the weathercocking tendencies aren't at play here.
Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 1:48pm
Sorry Jens, I didn't realise you meant real world...

How does she handle in comparison to your real-world time on the aircraft? Cool that you are here and able to give us such insight!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 8:33pm
@ beaver driver Believe me. The one with the Winds is also    not better in the real live. But there you HAVE to check crosswinds before. Otherwise you will wake up in the Hospital (if you are lucky) ;) One time I had to land with 35 kts Wind from the side. Then your pulse is on 150 if you have to fly with approach 10 to 15 degrees sideslip and have to align again to the runway shortly before touchdown.
@ alehead: No Problem :) like I said the plane behavior is very realistic for a sim. If you fly the real arrow at lower speeds she behaves very nervous.This is very well made here. Also the turning in the air "feels" very realistic. The climbing Performance is maybe stronger in the sim but I have to say that I fly a two blader prop.
But all in all I think I fly a little bit more hazardous in the sim. Most maneuvers I would never fly in the real live. Because 1. I don't have the money to repair the machine after every flight. 2. I want to live longer and 3. I am not a prepar3d avatar and so cannot reload myself.

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