Just Flight Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Just Flight Products > Hawk T1/A Advanced Trainer
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - SP2 feedback
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

SP2 feedback

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SP2 feedback
    Posted: 09 Dec 2016 at 9:47pm
Well I just installed SP2 to P3D V3.4, well not so great!  If you climb to any height, role inverted and then pull back to cause a inverted loop... the aircraft just falls from the sky! 

Not great, again !
Back to Top
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2016 at 10:16pm
I guess there's no chance of a refund, this release has been a total disaster of a release from the off?
Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 5:08pm
Not quite following exactly what you're doing there but I have just completed several loops by pulling to 4g starting at at least 300kts (as per the manual) and also pulling to 7g. No problems either right way up or inverted. Out of curiosity, I also tried pushing around the outside of a loop - bear in mind that the limit is -3.5g - and it behaved correctly throughout. All in P3D v3.4 (which, incidentally, the fde was developed in and then transferred across / adjusted for FSX).

I don't know if you've followed all the threads in this forum, but I'm sure that somewhere I quoted our Hawk pilot saying that normal fight used no more that 1/3 stick travel in any direction. Aeros went up as far as 2/3 stick travel. Beyond that was for the ACM. I suspect this may be where you are having a problem, as the only way I could get the aircraft to "fall from the sky" as you put it was to mishandle it to the extent that it entered a high speed stall or spin - the stall should be fairly easily recoverable, the spin if you do not recover it can lose 10,000 ft in 3 turns, had a minimum entry height of 10,000ft (reccomended height FL250 - FL300) and (as you mention being inverted) the Hawk was not cleared for inverted spinning.

I hope that helps a bit, the aircraft behaves as it should for me so unless you can provide any further detailed information about what you are seeing it's going to be very difficult to help you.
Paul.
Back to Top
WarHorse47 View Drop Down
P/UT
P/UT
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Status: Online
Points: 167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 5:44pm
I also noticed some flight challenges in FSX.

I noticed that the configuration application has different flight characteristics between standard and Red Arrow. It also recommends turning off any dynamic weather settings as that can affect the FDE.

Guess I need to do some experimenting to see how that changes things.

--WH
Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 6:02pm
The only difference between standard and Red Arrow should be the response time of the engine.

There are different configuration files - standard is what should be used, with FSX winds and turbulence turned off, preferably using an external weather program with those features set at about 10 - 15 %. The other configuration files are a close approximation of the main files but with extra stability built in and then roll, pitch and yaw axes increased in effect to balance the stability and maintain rates of roll, pitch and yaw for those who are either unable or unwilling to make the weather adjustments recommended.

Paul.
Back to Top
WarHorse47 View Drop Down
P/UT
P/UT
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Status: Online
Points: 167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 6:17pm
What airspeeds are you suggesting?

--WH
Back to Top
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 6:43pm
This is what I'm doing! If I'm in level flight at 10000ft, if I role inverted still level and then pull the sick back to start a inverted dive it aircraft gets to the vertical alignment and then just rolls itself out and the plumes to earth!

Likewise if I'm in level flight and pull up in to a vertical loop it gets to the vertical axis again and then rolls itself out and plummets to earth again.

There is no controlling it, there is no recovery of it at all!

Back to Top
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 6:47pm
Makes me laugh when I hear you have to turn off some weather options!! How come other software companies don't tell us to do this??

I guess they are able to develop a FDE that works in FSX/P3D and JF can't!
Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by helix1250 helix1250 wrote:

Makes me laugh when I hear you have to turn off some weather options!! How come other software companies don't tell us to do this??

I guess they are able to develop a FDE that works in FSX/P3D and JF can't!


Err, no - that is a complete misunderstanding of the weather 'issue'. The problem is noted elsewhere on this forum but I will give you a basic repetition of it to save you searching and possibly to help others:

If an aircraft is developed using real-world coefficients and moments of inertia alongside max sensitivity on the controller axes, it gives much more accurate control - the 'fingertip response' which is necessary for fine adjustments, particularly but not exclusively of fighter-type aircraft. Unfortunately, when MSFS was initially developed the stock aircraft did not use real-world coefficients, the aircraft were massively over-damped and therefore the stock weather system had to be much stronger than it really should be to elicit any reaction from the aircraft.  If you fly with little or no weather in these aircraft, you have the regular complaint that the aircraft feels like it runs on rails. This has been well known for many years now.

That method of fde design continued over the years but more recently there have been a few aeronautical engineers involved in developing flight models (NOT for Just Flight - yes, other companies!) and they have been doing so in the manner described above using real world figures. This process has been made easier by the advent of add-on weather programs which are adjustable, and between 10 and 15% wind / turbulence effect is generally seen to be the rough area for realistic response to weather. I'm not going to start dragging other companies into this on a public forum, but if you'd care to PM me I will happily give you a list of reasonably recent aircraft by some of the bigger FS software companies which follow this methodology. The main point is that if you are prepared to make some adjustments to your setup (after all, who hasn't tweaked the sim over the years?) then you will get a much better 'feel' for the flight characteristics. You will also note as I said above, for those unable or unwilling (and I suspect you are one of those?) to make the changes there is an extra stable flight model included. So, far from being unable to develop an FDE, I have created multiple versions in order to try and reach out to the widest possible audience.

Now back to your problem - in the couple of hours between your post and my writing this I have swapped the fde about, flown the 'extra stable' in stock FS weather, flown the 'proper' with AS Next weather adjusted as outlined above and flown the 'proper' in stock FS weather with a 15kt wind gusting to 20kt, moderate turbulence. All in your sim of choice, P3D v3.4. The ONLY way I can recreate your description is by pulling the stick fully aft suddenly during the loop, thus entering a high-speed stall. At no other point does the aircraft 'roll out' and begin to descend rapidly. In fact, although uncomfortable and requiring constant adjustment, multiple loops are perfectly possible in the last of the three situations described above, the situation which specifically shouldn't be used!

I hope that clarifies things a bit, and the offer of the PM is genuine - I would far rather people understand and enjoy the product.

Paul.


Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by WarHorse47 WarHorse47 wrote:

What airspeeds are you suggesting?

--WH


Is this for me? Airspeeds for what in particular?
Back to Top
WarHorse47 View Drop Down
P/UT
P/UT
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Status: Online
Points: 167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:

Originally posted by WarHorse47 WarHorse47 wrote:

What airspeeds are you suggesting?

--WH


Is this for me? Airspeeds for what in particular?
Yes, you.   

I was trying to understand the best airspeed for a loop. Seems that the aircraft stalls too soon because of the low airspeed going into the vertical. Basically it bleeds off to fast. I've been able to pull off one or two loops, but have to dive first to gain sufficient airspeed before going into the vertical.

--WH
Back to Top
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 9:37pm
Thanks Paul, I reverted back to SP1 and it flies fine. I'll give SP2 a miss!

And to be frank the hawks been a pile of poo! I'll end up removing it anyway! My findings have been fed back to my VA just incase someone had the crazy idea of buying this tosh!!
Back to Top
donnybalonny View Drop Down
Ground Crew
Ground Crew


Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Location: España
Status: Offline
Points: 60
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnybalonny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:



That method of fde design continued over the years but more recently there have been a few aeronautical engineers involved in developing flight models (NOT for Just Flight - yes, other companies!) and they have been doing so in the manner described above using real world figures.

Paul.




Would you mind saying which companies and maybe which aircraft as well? I find it to be very interesting and I have no idea whereelse I can get this info.

nd Btw, I didn´t even know that a SP2 had been released. I only knew about the SP1 (which is a sticky on this forum) Am I missing something?

Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 10:15am
Originally posted by WarHorse47 WarHorse47 wrote:

Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:

Originally posted by WarHorse47 WarHorse47 wrote:

What airspeeds are you suggesting?

--WH


Is this for me? Airspeeds for what in particular?
Yes, you.   

I was trying to understand the best airspeed for a loop. Seems that the aircraft stalls too soon because of the low airspeed going into the vertical. Basically it bleeds off to fast. I've been able to pull off one or two loops, but have to dive first to gain sufficient airspeed before going into the vertical.

--WH


Sorry, was losing track of who wanted what from whomEmbarrassed

300kts minimum, 350 is more comfortable to start with. Pull smoothly to 4g,  the loop should take around 3000ft (obviously slightly more the faster you enter) and you should go over the top at about 160 kts.
Cheers,
Paul.
Back to Top
helix1250 View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helix1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 10:30am
lol, I don't think my Hawk makes it to much above 210 knots.

I have recorded a p3D clip where do I send it for viewing. its a .fsr clip if that makes any sense?

Back to Top
Delta558 View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer

Just Flight FDE Developer

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 10:41am
Originally posted by donnybalonny donnybalonny wrote:

Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:



That method of fde design continued over the years but more recently there have been a few aeronautical engineers involved in developing flight models (NOT for Just Flight - yes, other companies!) and they have been doing so in the manner described above using real world figures.

Paul.




Would you mind saying which companies and maybe which aircraft as well? I find it to be very interesting and I have no idea whereelse I can get this info.






As I mentioned, I'm not in the habit of commenting on other companies and their work in a public forum but I'll send you a PM.
Paul.
Back to Top
Morti View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff
Avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 7:31pm
I just downloaded and reinstalled SP2 - how do I turn the landing light on the noise on?
Back to Top
Morti View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff
Avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 7:33pm
ok omg - I found it lol a switch not where I expected lol
Back to Top
Morti View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff
Avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 8:27pm
when ever I I select the HUD I'm getting a blue panel when I cycle thru the options after I turned it on. so no nap etc .. am I doing anything wrong.

I uninstalled Hawk first then reinstalled SP2 .. so what have I done?
Back to Top
Morti View Drop Down
Check-In Staff
Check-In Staff
Avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Morti Morti wrote:

when ever I I select the HUD I'm getting a blue panel when I cycle thru the options after I turned it on. so no nap etc .. am I doing anything wrong.

I uninstalled Hawk first then reinstalled SP2 .. so what have I done?


https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=EC8FB86A48E7EE2D&resid=EC8FB86A48E7EE2D%2179147&authkey=AD8LOAMNKeWQmZQ
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down