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The patch is amazing!

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mlb406 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 2:41pm
SP1 was just released (http:///www.justflight.com/support/hawk-t1a-advanced-trainer/53eafec) and after doing a short flight around Wales, I was not dissapointed! The FDE rework has done wonders and this aircraft is now amazingly smooth and easy to fly. The only bug I found was selecting a livery (in this case the Welsh Dragon) would actually load another (the Indonesian Air Force). I don't know what's going on there but the other liveries seem to be going fine.

My first impressions can be found on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br9fOf1YsYA

Thanks Just Flight. It's been a while in the making but the Hawk has finally been given the model it deserves!

Max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 4:02pm
Now we're getting somewhere.
This is what we wanted. It starts, well at least it has done 3 times in a row, which is better than before. It flys well and is reasonably stable.
I find the realistic nose wheel next to impossible, but that's no big problem. The steerable wheel is fine. The realistic flight dynamics are very good. It is now stable enough to allow you to look at your gauges and tune your radios, while keeping a steady altitude.
I am now very pleased with this aircraft, it is a joy to fly now.
It just needs better documentation to make it excellent. The documentation supplied is very good on how the systems work but some flight reference data would be a big help, as would a more comprehensive checklist. There is always Google, but it would be nice if it was included in the package.
Well done JF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HOTZONER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 4:42pm
All 6 thumbs up for this ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 5:02pm
It's brilliant to fly now! my only annoyances that haven't been resolved in this are:

- the landing light (its non-existent in the day time)
- and the gun sight isn't visible (in FSX anyway) in the VC but does in the 'HUD' view?

Dan

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Rich View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 6:55pm
Hi Dan,

The HUD reticle should be there. You might need to adjust the eye point if you're not looking directly through it. 
By landing light do you mean you expected to see a light cone emanating from the light during the day, or that the light doesn't appear to be turning on during the day?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 7:35pm
Hi Rich,

Apologies, please ignore my comment about the HUD, you're quite right it is there, I just had to adjust the seat height a little to see it!

The landing light does turn on during the day but its just extremely dim/almost as if its just white paint, and can only just be seen in Spot view at the front but it doesn't shine properly like it does in the dark. I've heard others that are experiencing this too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 8:36pm
The update has done little about the way the aircraft pitches up when it stalls. I'm not a Hawk pilot but I can't imagine that behaviour being remotely acceptable in service.

It still feels like it wants to overrotate on takeoff. You have to initiate rotation then push forward to stop the nose rising too much.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2016 at 4:40am
Are you sure the SP has installed correctly? I haven't checked the released package yet but with my final files the nosewheel has to be held up off the ground after rotation, there is no tendency to continue pitching upwards at all. What speed are you rotating at and what load (passengers and stores  - these have a significant effect).

Regarding the stall regime, it's not finalised yet - priority was to get pitch, roll and yaw acting correctly and get the aircraft updated so that customers were able to fly it. However, you should not be getting pitch-up at the stall unless you hold the stick fully back. As stated in the manual, controls are still effective below stall speeds and whilst I have not finished work here you should certainly not be getting anything like the backflips from previously.

Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Golding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2016 at 8:27am
As Paul said Kevin, there's something not quite right with your install. The SP1 flight model is light years away from the initial release (albeit with some work on the stall to be done).

I'm happily using flaps 1, trim 3, full fuel and pulling the nose up by 120 and holding the attitude until a smooth lift off just after. Gear up, flaps up, accelerating and trimming down.

I've no idea what the Hawk is actually like to fly, but this feels like what I imagine a basic jet trainer should feel like. Flying circuits with landings and take-offs is now a real pleasure and I can happily have a nose down into the cockpit without fear of what I'll see when I look up :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 226OCU Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2016 at 1:10pm
Good work chaps.
I develop software for a living and can really appreciate the pressure you work under. I still love the Hawk...even more so now! I love the heavy workload that this aircraft gives - just like the real thing as they used to say.

Smooth with a capital Smoo.

Cheers,
Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2016 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:

Are you sure the SP has installed correctly? I haven't checked the released package yet but with my final files the nosewheel has to be held up off the ground after rotation, there is no tendency to continue pitching upwards at all. What speed are you rotating at and what load (passengers and stores  - these have a significant effect).

Regarding the stall regime, it's not finalised yet - priority was to get pitch, roll and yaw acting correctly and get the aircraft updated so that customers were able to fly it. However, you should not be getting pitch-up at the stall unless you hold the stick fully back. As stated in the manual, controls are still effective below stall speeds and whilst I have not finished work here you should certainly not be getting anything like the backflips from previously.

Paul.
I don't see how it could install incorrectly. I uninstalled the original and installed SP1. If I have an air file, the dlls and aircraft.cfg from the new versions that should be it. To be certain I've uninstalled and reinstalled again.

As for takeoff settings it really would be helpful if some reference was provided for rotation speed, flaps and trim settings. So I'm guessing speeds and configuration. Load is as default. Two crew, no stores.

By experimenting I found that when clean Vr is around 150 kts and trim 2 units NU is about right to put you in trim after lift off. For flap 25, Vr is around 130 and trim 0 units. Now I've tested it more today, rotation is better, it doesn't need a nose down input to stop it rotating but it is still rather sensitive. I would expect to need more pitch input at takeoff speeds. There is still a feeling that pitch rate is increasing.

With stall, it is still pitching up and with nowhere near full aft stick. If I decelerate slowly (1 kt/s) with engines idle when the stall occurs the nose pitches up with no change in pitch input. If this is still worik in progress then fair enough, but perhaps that should be in the release notes.

I see the engine still shuts down if you switch of the start system. That shouldn't cause that. It is only the start system that is off, not fuel and ignition. Any plans to fix this?

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2016 at 6:41pm
Kevin, there is definitely something amiss with what you have somehow:

I have just taken the release SP1 package up with one pilot and no weapons, mid flap and zero trim. A pull on the stick and the nosewheel will lift (as it should) at 90kias, you will have to hold it there and the aircraft flies itself off at (or slightly above) 120kias. Those are the figures from the manual and SP1 achieves it. The manual also notes that with two pilots and/or stores the nosewheel may not begin to lift until above 100, even with 2 units of nose-up trim.

If you are delaying rotation until 150kts, it is no surprise that you are finding it pitching up - at that point in the acceleration you should already find that you are trimming forwards (though raising the flaps quickly will also help as they provide a small nose-up tendency in trim at lower speeds but a significant nose-up the nearer you get to 200kts). Also, you will find that by lifting the nosewheel at the correct speed you will need more stick input, as you expect!

If you cannot get the nosewheel to lift at or around 90, I would suggest a fresh download from your account and re-install from that?

Regarding the pitch:
The empty weight CG on the Hawk is at roughly frame 21 (from memory) which is quite a way back, this is why pilots and stores have quite a noticeable impact on trim. In SP1, if you trim the aircraft correctly for low and decreasing speed flight down to and beyond the stall with stick neutral, the aircraft does not pitch up but enters a descending stall maintaining the same attitude. If you do have SP1 properly installed and the nose continues to rise then you are applying rearwards pressure on the stick. As I said, work in progress but the controls are effective below the stall speed and will affect the nose even when I have completed work on that area. Meantime, try not to stall it!

I really hope we get this sorted for you, Kevin, and I am sure that what you are quoting is so similar to pre-SP1 behaviour and so unlike SP1 behaviour that the problem must be in there somewhere!

Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:

Kevin, there is definitely something amiss with what you have somehow:

I have just taken the release SP1 package up with one pilot and no weapons, mid flap and zero trim. A pull on the stick and the nosewheel will lift (as it should) at 90kias, you will have to hold it there and the aircraft flies itself off at (or slightly above) 120kias. Those are the figures from the manual and SP1 achieves it. The manual also notes that with two pilots and/or stores the nosewheel may not begin to lift until above 100, even with 2 units of nose-up trim.

If you are delaying rotation until 150kts, it is no surprise that you are finding it pitching up - at that point in the acceleration you should already find that you are trimming forwards (though raising the flaps quickly will also help as they provide a small nose-up tendency in trim at lower speeds but a significant nose-up the nearer you get to 200kts). Also, you will find that by lifting the nosewheel at the correct speed you will need more stick input, as you expect!

If you cannot get the nosewheel to lift at or around 90, I would suggest a fresh download from your account and re-install from that?

Regarding the pitch:
The empty weight CG on the Hawk is at roughly frame 21 (from memory) which is quite a way back, this is why pilots and stores have quite a noticeable impact on trim. In SP1, if you trim the aircraft correctly for low and decreasing speed flight down to and beyond the stall with stick neutral, the aircraft does not pitch up but enters a descending stall maintaining the same attitude. If you do have SP1 properly installed and the nose continues to rise then you are applying rearwards pressure on the stick. As I said, work in progress but the controls are effective below the stall speed and will affect the nose even when I have completed work on that area. Meantime, try not to stall it!

I really hope we get this sorted for you, Kevin, and I am sure that what you are quoting is so similar to pre-SP1 behaviour and so unlike SP1 behaviour that the problem must be in there somewhere!

Paul.
Paul,
To find Vmr I tried applying full aft stick to see what speed th enose lifted at. With no flap the nose doesn't begin to lift until around 130-140 knots, which is why I don't start to rotate until 150 with zero flap. This is with two crew (which is how it sets up from the install). 

I'll download it again and see what happens, but as the installer I have is named Hawk_Installer_SP1.exe, and I've made sure all traces of the old software are removed, I don't see how it can install pre-SP1 behaviour. The Hawk is flying differently, but not in the way you describe it should. For info, Control Panel shows the Hawk is at version 1.16.0000.

The installer now on the site is named SP1a. I uninstalled SP1 and installed SP1a but the version number is the same. For takeoff using your config (pilot only, flap 25, zero trim), even if I hold the stick fully aft during the takeoff roll the nose will not lift until 105 KIAS.

You may not be able to reproduce the entire Hawk manual here, but please give an indication in the documentation what the typical takeoff configuration is and what speed to rotate at.

Regarding stall, I'm not increasing the aft stick. I have a small amount of aft stick to decelerate the aircraft at 1 knot per second. As the aircraft stalls it pitches up significantly (no change in my input). I tried it by trimming and leaving the stick neutral and that made no difference, it still pitched up during stall.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Golding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 8:10am
I tried this again last night using full fuel, 1 pilot, mid flap and neutral trim. I repeatedly have the nose off the ground before 100kts and smoothly get into the air at around 120kts. In this config, I very definitely get no unwelcome pitching and raising gear and flap whilst accelerating is all very controllable. Basically, it flies like I'd expect a jet trainer would do. As speed increases, there is of course a need to constantly trim until speed is stable.

I didn't try stalling though :-(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Paul Golding Paul Golding wrote:

I tried this again last night using full fuel, 1 pilot, mid flap and neutral trim. I repeatedly have the nose off the ground before 100kts and smoothly get into the air at around 120kts. In this config, I very definitely get no unwelcome pitching and raising gear and flap whilst accelerating is all very controllable. Basically, it flies like I'd expect a jet trainer would do. As speed increases, there is of course a need to constantly trim until speed is stable.

I didn't try stalling though :-(
That's weird because I can't get the nose to lift before 100 knots. Takeoff feels unnatural, unlike any other fast jet sim I've flown in FSX. The late rotation and post stall pitch up could be explained by an excessively forward CG. When I checked this via the FSX aircraft loading menu, CG is shown as being at 0% (i.e. at the leading edge of the wing). How does it look with your Hawk?

I only checked stalls because that was a problem previously. But the rotation behaviour is a problem for every flight. Once in the air the handling is great. I can see a difference with SP1, just not as good as you and the developer are seeing. Strange.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of this, because in all other respects this is a lovely addon to fly.

Kevin

Edit, All along I've been talking about flying the Hawk as it loads up by default, with two crew. Not having an instructor in the back seat has a big effect on CG and that explains why I'm seeing different characteristics. With only the pilot on board it rotates as you say.

While checking this, I tried external stores, and they appear to be visual effects only. No effect on weight or CG.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 7:40pm
Hi Kevin,

The full Operating Data Manual gives it's take-off description (speeds etc) as I described above, it also specifically states that with two 'bulky' pilots and no external stores it may need up to two units of nose up trim. Also that with any pilot config, adding stores will increase the speed of rotation. This is a result of the very aft empty CG position (from memory, in the area of frame 20/21 which is a long way back). Any weight added forwards will make a significant difference to the energy required to lift the nosewheel.

The Hawk handles differently depending on its weight distribution,  you'll get used to it but I suppose it just takes a bit of planning. Unfortunately, the full manual is subject to copyright and we can't just start distributing it but it is available on the net and well worth a read.

Paul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 1:08am
Every time I attempt to read this post I get a white page and no text? Anybody know why?   

--WH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Delta558 Delta558 wrote:

Hi Kevin,

The full Operating Data Manual gives it's take-off description (speeds etc) as I described above, it also specifically states that with two 'bulky' pilots and no external stores it may need up to two units of nose up trim. Also that with any pilot config, adding stores will increase the speed of rotation. This is a result of the very aft empty CG position (from memory, in the area of frame 20/21 which is a long way back). Any weight added forwards will make a significant difference to the energy required to lift the nosewheel.

The Hawk handles differently depending on its weight distribution,  you'll get used to it but I suppose it just takes a bit of planning. Unfortunately, the full manual is subject to copyright and we can't just start distributing it but it is available on the net and well worth a read.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

Thanks. I accept it's a copyright document and you can't supply a copy but it would really help if some guidance about takeoff speed, flap and trim was given in JF documentation.

Stores don't make any difference to weight or CG in the Hawk sim. It looks like they are meant to as (most of) the stations are provided for.

I also asked about the start switch issue but you didn't reply. Is it on the list to fix?

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Delta558 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 5:20pm
The start switch I have no idea on, personally - coding is not my area, I stick with the flight dynamics! I will mention it for you, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 11:53pm
Dino Cattaneo's T-45C Goshawk has excellent documentation included. Slight problem with the flight numbers because the T45 is heavier than the Hawk and has a different air brake system, but they are pretty close. There is also a very good check-list, although the T45 has different avionics, I found it very helpful with the Hawk.
The T45 is extremely good, for freeware, but the Hawk, now that it has been patched, is much better in all respects.
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