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KAP 150 Altitude Selector

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edpatino View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 12:18am
Could you please confirm if VS (Vertical Speed) control can be accomplished via the pitch selector located to the left of the KAP 150 to reach a desired altitude and then pressing the ALT button to keep the altitude at the selected level, or you need to adjust the pitch by manual control with the yoke/joystick and once reached the desired altitude, selecting it by hitting the ALT button?. Please explain, because in the manual this is not mentioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2016 at 10:31am
Apologies for the late reply, I have just returned from holiday.

The KAP 150 autopilot functionality is as per the real thing. With ALT mode off the autopilot will hold the currently selected pitch, which can be adjusted using the UP/DN rocker switch. With ALT mode on the autopilot will hold the current altitude unless the UP/DN rocker switch is used, in which case it will hold a +500ft/min climb (UP) or -500ft/min descent (DN). 

In the VC you need to left-click and hold to move the rocker switch to the DN (down) position and right-click and hold to move the rocker switch to the UP position. The mouse-wheel cannot be used. For the 2D panel, left-click and hold on either the DN or UP section of the rocker switch. 

There is one issue with the KAP 150 pitch hold that will be fixed in an upcoming update. That issue prevents pitch hold from re-engaging if ALT mode is engaged and then subsequently disengaged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 3:48pm
Do you mean in real life, or in the sim?

Because IRL there is no v/s hold. ONLY pitch hold (which is not the same thing). 

Curiously, v/s mode is slaved to +/- 500fpm limit when the ALT annunciator is ALSO lit AND the Up/Down rocker is pressed. But as soon as the rocker is released it will trigger ALT Hold - mostly used for Alt changes under ATC control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 4:20pm
Ok, thanks for your comments.
I'm talking in sim, not IRL (flying is cheaper with the Just Flight model, right?). So, I think that in absence of further comments, the pitch or VS (not the same, I agree) control has to be done manually until the aircraft reaches the desired altitude, when the ALT hold mode is selected, because in sim there is no pitch control either (very bad, indeed!). Hopefully the developers could correct this in an upcoming patch.
Cheers, Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:59am
I can't think they'd have modeled the KAP 150 without including at least some kind of vertical mode.

Don't have the aircraft myself so maybe submit a support ticket or review the manual?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 10:53am
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

I can't think they'd have modeled the KAP 150 without including at least some kind of vertical mode.

Why would they though? - the KAP 150 doesn't have a vertical mode.  It merely holds the attitude when the AP Mode is engaged, and you use trim to adjust climb rate.  Once at the desired altitude, press ALT for altitude hold.

The KAP 150 manual is here: 
https://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/006-08377-0001_1.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 2:07pm
Thanks people for your help.
Cheers, Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Slopey Slopey wrote:

Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

I can't think they'd have modeled the KAP 150 without including at least some kind of vertical mode.

Why would they though? - the KAP 150 doesn't have a vertical mode.  It merely holds the attitude when the AP Mode is engaged, and you use trim to adjust climb rate.  Once at the desired altitude, press ALT for altitude hold.

The KAP 150 manual is here: 
https://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/006-08377-0001_1.pdf

Might one suggest you actually READ the document you reference: What's a  TWO-axis autopilot..?

Page 6: "The systems diagrams reflect that the KAP 150 and KFC 150 systems control both pitch and roll axes of the aircraft."

Yes, that's a TWO axis autopilot.

Page 35: "Vertical Trim This rocker switch allows you to adjust the pitch to achieve approximately a 500 fpm rate of change while in ALT hold, or a rate of approximately .9 degrees per second when not in ALT hold."

One could go on, but I don't like repeating myself. TWO vertical modes. Geek

But please do let us know how many hours you have  - in real aircraft with the KFC/KAP150 system rather than Google searching? I did most of my early flying in a number of Mooneys, Pipers and yes, TB's equipped with this device so I recall its features (and foibles - you wouldn't want Just Flight recreating those or you'd call it `unrealistic`). Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 10:06pm
I opened up a ticket with Just Flight to exactly know the answer from its developer. Will post once I receive the answers.
Thanks and Cheers, Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 8:19am
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

Originally posted by Slopey Slopey wrote:

Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

I can't think they'd have modeled the KAP 150 without including at least some kind of vertical mode.

Why would they though? - the KAP 150 doesn't have a vertical mode.  It merely holds the attitude when the AP Mode is engaged, and you use trim to adjust climb rate.  Once at the desired altitude, press ALT for altitude hold.

The KAP 150 manual is here: 
https://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/006-08377-0001_1.pdf

Might one suggest you actually READ the document you reference: What's a  TWO-axis autopilot..?

Page 6: "The systems diagrams reflect that the KAP 150 and KFC 150 systems control both pitch and roll axes of the aircraft."

Yes, that's a TWO axis autopilot.

Page 35: "Vertical Trim This rocker switch allows you to adjust the pitch to achieve approximately a 500 fpm rate of change while in ALT hold, or a rate of approximately .9 degrees per second when not in ALT hold."

One could go on, but I don't like repeating myself. TWO vertical modes. Geek

But please do let us know how many hours you have  - in real aircraft with the KFC/KAP150 system rather than Google searching? I did most of my early flying in a number of Mooneys, Pipers and yes, TB's equipped with this device so I recall its features (and foibles - you wouldn't want Just Flight recreating those or you'd call it `unrealistic`). Ouch

Fair enough, I wouldn't call a trim function with a wing leveller a vertical mode - but I don't have any hours on type, so I'll bow to your knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 3:48pm
Hi, for those kind people who commented this post, I've got an answer from JustFlight support (Martin) in response to my previous query in respect to the KAP 150 AP and the altitude/pitch control issue (or Vertical Mode control):

"Hi Ed
 
Are you following all the instructions in the manual? The Vertical Trim button should let you adjust the pitch/altitude when ALT mode is off or on. When ALT is off the switch will adjust the pitch/trim and when ALT is on it will adjust the altitude
In both cases you need to hold the UP or DN pressed until you reach the point you require
 
regards
 
Martin Wright
 
Just Flight & Just Trains Support Team"

Thanks to Martin for the assistance.
Cheers, Ed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 5:52pm
Hi, just want to share the experience of controlling the vertical speed/pitch of the TB20 according to the indications from Martin. Regretfully, and assuming the vertical mode is modeled on the TB20 as mentioned by Martin, I have to say that is not correctly modeled, since is simply not possible to use the vertical trim from the KAP150 unit (either with ALT on or off), to control attitude/pitch. I suggest to the developers to look carefully into this and submit a patch to make it function as intended.
Cheers, Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 9:16am
Fair enough. It's a genuine issue if it doesn't do what it says it should do in the manual, which IS a fair representation of the real life device. As I said elsewhere, I'm holding off on purchasing this until there's variable lighting for my HDR-on P3D installation and as there's no demo, I can't test it.

TBH, the real one is often so disliked for it's vagaries on Alt Hold and meandering abot the Hdg bug that it's often been substituted, so the dislike of the unit in both virtual and actual worlds could almost be called `realism`! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

Fair enough. It's a genuine issue if it doesn't do what it says it should do in the manual, which IS a fair representation of the real life device. As I said elsewhere, I'm holding off on purchasing this until there's variable lighting for my HDR-on P3D installation and as there's no demo, I can't test it.

TBH, the real one is often so disliked for it's vagaries on Alt Hold and meandering abot the Hdg bug that it's often been substituted, so the dislike of the unit in both virtual and actual worlds could almost be called `realism`! 
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I did not finally get any specific solution from JF support about this issue. They, as other do as well, ends by saying I belong to a "minority one" of users who does not have this problem. I strongly doubt I'm the only one or part of a "minority one" portion of users with the issue, most probably they are not too many, or they simply haven't noticed yet.
I think you're right in holding off from this.
Cheers, Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2016 at 8:45am
I do believe its' increasingly the case that the `early adopters` discount implies accepting a product that still requires tweaking, testing and service pack-ing before it gets to a useable state. 
And it's not limited to Just Flight and their developers. 

The difference seems to be that JF actually listen and make changes long after the [insert developer here] of this world have run off to their next creation, clutching the cash from their previous... 

I'm sure it will be sorted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2016 at 10:31am
Apologies for the late reply, I have just returned from holiday.

The KAP 150 autopilot functionality is as per the real thing. With ALT mode off the autopilot will hold the currently selected pitch, which can be adjusted using the UP/DN rocker switch. With ALT mode on the autopilot will hold the current altitude unless the UP/DN rocker switch is used, in which case it will hold a +500ft/min climb (UP) or -500ft/min descent (DN). 

In the VC you need to left-click and hold to move the rocker switch to the DN (down) position and right-click and hold to move the rocker switch to the UP position. The mouse-wheel cannot be used. For the 2D panel, left-click and hold on either the DN or UP section of the rocker switch. 

There is one issue with the KAP 150 pitch hold that will be fixed in an upcoming update. That issue prevents pitch hold from re-engaging if ALT mode is engaged and then subsequently disengaged.
Martyn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edpatino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2016 at 5:21pm
Thanks, Martyn.
Your explanation did the trick, thanks so much. I was not obvious to me in VC the use of left and right mouse buttons to go DN or UP when AP is ON and ALT mode is disengaged. Now the aircraft behaves Ok, as intended.
I suggest changing/supplementing the explanation given in the Manual as well, in order that people that read the manual don't have the need to ask over here at the Forum.
Cheers, Ed

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