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Avro Lancaster

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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 6:17pm
I think you would be hard pushed to find anyone who would voluntarily loop a Lancaster with a bombload. The article, which quotes the Daily Mail, states that the aircraft was not in a controlled loop but was inverted by the blast of an AA shell, the pilot recovered by completing the loop, rather like a split-s.
Given some forward planning and some ability almost anything is possible

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Chock View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by petesmiffy petesmiffy wrote:

I would like to see that from a more reliable source than the Daily Mail.

That clipping isn't from the Daily Mail, it's from the Melbourne Argus, dated Jan 8th 1943. It is a story they've picked up off the wire from the Australian Associated Press news feed. That of course doesn't necessarily mean it is true, however, the fact that it was on AAP's source feed tends to lend it a bit more credence, but more than that...

I think the original source for the story might have been Clare Hollingworth (who died last year aged 105), and if that is the case then I would certainly lend it very much more credibility, as she was a very brave reporter who was also a very keen flier too. She was in fact the news correspondent who got what was almost certainly the scoop of the Twentieth Century, for it was she who broke the news of the start of WW2; she was the first to report the German invasion of Poland, her report first appearing in the Daily Telegraph.

She once said: 'I'll go anywhere so long as I have my pearl handled revolver and my other two essentials; a toothbrush and a typewriter.'

They don't make 'em like that anymore do they? What a wonderful and very brave lady.

But anyway, back on the topic of the Lancaster and it being able to loop. Regardless of the fact that Lancaster pilot Eric Phillips said he did it, and who are we to doubt him? Or that this newspaper report alleges it occurred too, I don't doubt that it is possible to loop a Lancaster, all you need to loop pretty much any aeroplane is enough entry speed and the ability for it to withstand a little positive G loading. 

We know the Lancaster was built tough, what with its notoriously hefty main wing spar and very strong girder section bomb bay which enabled it to lift such massive bomb loads, and we know that several Lancasters were dived and turned so hard during evasive manoeuvers that they actually shed their ailerons, yet still recovered safely. So really the only things I'd worry about in looping a Lancaster would be that the bomb shackles maintained their integrity under a larger G load if there were some on board, and that there would be enough altitude to perform the manoeuver.

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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 9:18am
I would like to see that from a more reliable source than the Daily Mail.
There are so many variables in play when manoeuvring an aircraft that what is and what isn't possible are almost impossible to define.  Some extreme examples, such as the rolling of the prototype B707 and Janusz ┼╗urakowski "cartwheeling" a Meteor were well planned beforehand and flown by highly expert pilots, while others were desperate measures under the stress of combat. Or, allegedly, in the case of an attempt to loop a Messerschmitt Me 323 Gigant, while under the influence of alcohol.
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Chock View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 8:35am
Originally posted by neilG neilG wrote:

Ok guys, just managed to pull a loop in full reality in an Avro Lancaster. I am not entirely sure about these flight dynamics???

Looping an AVRO Lancaster has been done in reality deliberately on at least one occasion that I know of, by Eric Phillips. Eric flew a number of aircraft in WW2 but particularly loved the Lancaster, on which he was an instructor after he'd completed a tour of 30 missions on them with 100 Squadron. His tour was no easy one either, it included seven missions to Berlin amongst other places. 

Eric once landed a Lancaster on one engine after a student he was instructing managed to kill three of its engines. He also once deliberately feathered one engine on his Lancaster and then overtook a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress he'd spotted, just for a bit of fun. so he was really familiar with the things.

Of the Lancaster, he said: 'They have a great deal of power and can be thrown all over the sky, which is very necessary in operations when caught in the glare of a searchlight over enemy territory.'

But if that doesn't convince you, check this newspaper clipping out at the link below. It's about a Lancaster pulling a loop with a full bomb load on board...

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simondix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simondix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2018 at 7:54pm
If you Wiki Alec Henshaw it states he barrel rolled one.
Simon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2018 at 4:16pm
Can you give me a link to that please?, I'd be fascinated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simondix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2018 at 11:44am
With regards to a loop a think Alec Henshaw rolled or looped a Lancaster

Simon
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Uncle Bucc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Bucc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 8:15pm
Interesting posts above.

I tried using the auto controls again and it makes the aircraft behave in the most peculiar manner and after trying petesmiffy's advice still have erratic behaviour.  Once you manage to hold a heading only slight deviations are possible anything fierce makes everything unstable again and it needs to be reset.

Slight 'tweaks' from the bomb aimers' position are okay providing they are subtle.

After my latest flight (2 hours) both starboard engines still continued turning after shut down!!!

I also find that with the auto control trying to set the P8 compass also sends the aircraft into wild manoeuvres and the compass/gyro in the 'big six' shows strange readings.

Other than that I shall try a flight with a bomb load and see what happens and also re-read the manual again regarding the fuel tanks and distribution.

Overall I like the Lancaster and once I get used to her will probably do a 'sortie' with flak effects enabled.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 7:53pm
Thanks, I will read  that. But if the flight dynamics are wrong I hope it is fixed in a patch because this is otherwise a lovely model and surely correct flight dynamics are central to a good model. Please guys at AH, check it out and see if I'm right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 7:48pm
Barrel-roll, yes. Not sure about a loop. I would think the stresses would tear the aircraft apart, assuming you had damages activated in the sim. But then again, this is a simulation.

--WH

PS - Need to read chapter 12 of "Sigh for a Merlin" by test pilot Alex Henshaw to did a lot of testing of the Lanc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 7:48pm
Right, just pulled another loop with full bomb load and full realism: built up steam in a dive  - no rumble or shake through dive acceleration; smooth as silk,  - pulled up and over, pulled out and all smooth as....Now Ive never flown the real thing but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to do that in reality. I think this is important, what do others think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 7:08pm
I was empty but shouldn't be able to do that anyway should you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarHorse47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by neilG neilG wrote:

Ok guys, just managed to pull a loop in full reality in an Avro Lancaster. I am not entirely sure about these flight dynamics???
Was that with a full bomb load or empty?

--WH
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neilG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 6:59pm
Ok guys, just managed to pull a loop in full reality in an Avro Lancaster. I am not entirely sure about these flight dynamics???
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neilG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 5:04pm
Does anyone else find that the FPS is a bit low?
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Uncle Bucc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Bucc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 8:07pm
@ petesmiffy many thanks for the help regarding the auto control. 

I tried another flight, by mistake for trying a twilight/night flight, and the same thing happened again the aeroplane went all over the place.  I shall try your remedy again tomorrow morning to see if I get better results.

Now I must remember some mental arithmetic when calculating my courses if that is the case.  LOL

I am using FSX:SE (Steam Edition) for those who may be experiencing similar issues.
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 4:04pm
PS
If you carefully place your mouse cursor in the very centre of the Auto Control Turn Lever control, on what looks like the central bolt. Left clicking will produce a left turn and right clicking a right turn. Stopping the turn on the correct heading is tricky but it can be done with a quick blast of opposite click
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 3:18pm
I have discovered (in P3Dv4) that if you start up, take off and climb to whatever altitude you like and then  engage the Auto Control, pitch works like it says on the tin. Heading can be made to work too, do NOT touch the Auto Control Steering lever. The Auto Control strives to keep the aircraft heading towards the "0" on the Direction Indicator
Flying North with the Direction Indicator showing "0", turn the Indicator to "030" and the aircraft will turn to PORT until the Direction Indicator reads "0" again and you are now flying on a heading of 330Mag. Turn the Direction Indicator however many degrees you like and the aircraft will turn that number of degrees in the opposite direction, to bring the Direction Indicator back to "0". Do NOT press "D" because  that will screw it up.
Not ideal, but it works.
I have not tried it from the bomb aimer's position.
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petesmiffy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petesmiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 11:26am
I found the default cockpit lighting makes the start up drill difficult. I expect the real pilots could do it all by touch, or torch.
Over I really like it. Just need to get the auto control heading sorted. I have submitted a ticket.
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Uncle Bucc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Bucc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 10:51am
I am afraid that I am unable to help you there as I suffered the same problem.  I then re-read the manual and will try and give it another go again tonight. 

I hope that I can find out where I am going wrong and I will post an update if any positive results happen.

I also need to "tweak" the aileron null zones in FSUIPC but that is a local issue for me.

I flew for about an hour just to get the feel and I need to be careful and watch my air-speed when deploying flaps plus also how quickly she can fall from the sky.  My first landing was one of the best I have ever managed in any of my virtual aircraft.

I also had a funny 'glitch' when trying to shut down number three engine because the airscrew (propellor) just kept on slowly turning after it had been shut-down. 

My next flight will also be in twilight, either dawn or dusk, just to try out the cockpit lighting as standard and as set out in the manual.

Also if you 'manage' the engines some pretty good fuel consumption can be obtained.  I saw on a TV programme about the Lancaster, Forces TV, that some flight engineers could get 1 nautical mile to each gallon of fuel that was carried.

All the best.
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