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Simon73 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by johnwillimas johnwillimas wrote:

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

When you submit a ticket you should receive an acknowledgement email almost immediately. Are you saying you've not seen that reply also?


I've submitted 3 (I think) support requests on the Dove and not seen any acknowledgement emails. If these are meant to go out automatically, I think that system must be broken.




Perhaps it had been filtered in your junk mail or spam folder? Would you be so kind as to send it to our email address orders@justflight.com?

We can then forward it to our support team for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnwillimas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

When you submit a ticket you should receive an acknowledgement email almost immediately. Are you saying you've not seen that reply also?


I've submitted 3 (I think) support requests on the Dove and not seen any acknowledgement emails. If these are meant to go out automatically, I think that system must be broken.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnwillimas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

When you submit a ticket you should receive an acknowledgement email almost immediately. Are you saying you've not seen that reply also?

I've submitted three (I think) support tickets on the Dove and I haven't seen any acknowledgement emails. I think there might be a blip in your ticketing system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 10:32am
Originally posted by thefrog thefrog wrote:

I submitted a support ticket a few days ago but have had no response or acknowledgement yet. In case it's not been received here are my notes as I made them, just for the  record:

Manual:
I'm confused about the different versions: the Mk2 has a transparent cockpit roof and cockscomb aerial. The BOAC version has these features but is described as an early Mk 6 on p8 under Liveries and on p62 in the tutorial and in the aircraft selection list in P3D.

Flying the Dove in P3D v2.5:
Elevator trim setting for take-off: I crashed the first two times on climb-out (!) because the trim was at 0 as I was following the checklist in the manual. I have found it needs to be at least around minus 4 to 5  to stop the aircraft stalling.

As others have found, it's generally unstable in pitch. It is very difficult to trim for straight and level flight. I have slightly improved this by increasing Elevator effectiveness and Pitch Stability in the aircraft.cfg file to 2.0.

The Dove gains and loses airspeed very quickly when climbing and descending, and with full flap on the approach: is this a feature of the actual aircraft?

Sound:
Missing engine start-up sound. As others have suggested, I corrected this by adding freeware sounds and renaming them.

Cruise sound:
While flying in the vc, if I go to exterior view and then back to the vc, the engine sound has completely changed (corrected if throttles are moved a fraction).

I'm wondering how these things were missed in all the beta testing that must have been done!

When you submit a ticket you should receive an acknowledgement email almost immediately. Are you saying you've not seen that reply also?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 10:27am
Originally posted by andresico andresico wrote:

I simply dont get what is going on with Justflight/aeroplane Heaven. 


I can try to help. What do you mean by that exactly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andresico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 8:19am
I simply dont get what is going on with Justflight/aeroplane Heaven. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2016 at 8:32pm
I submitted a support ticket a few days ago but have had no response or acknowledgement yet. In case it's not been received here are my notes as I made them, just for the  record:

Manual:
I'm confused about the different versions: the Mk2 has a transparent cockpit roof and cockscomb aerial. The BOAC version has these features but is described as an early Mk 6 on p8 under Liveries and on p62 in the tutorial and in the aircraft selection list in P3D.

Flying the Dove in P3D v2.5:
Elevator trim setting for take-off: I crashed the first two times on climb-out (!) because the trim was at 0 as I was following the checklist in the manual. I have found it needs to be at least around minus 4 to 5  to stop the aircraft stalling.

As others have found, it's generally unstable in pitch. It is very difficult to trim for straight and level flight. I have slightly improved this by increasing Elevator effectiveness and Pitch Stability in the aircraft.cfg file to 2.0.

The Dove gains and loses airspeed very quickly when climbing and descending, and with full flap on the approach: is this a feature of the actual aircraft?

Sound:
Missing engine start-up sound. As others have suggested, I corrected this by adding freeware sounds and renaming them.

Cruise sound:
While flying in the vc, if I go to exterior view and then back to the vc, the engine sound has completely changed (corrected if throttles are moved a fraction).

I'm wondering how these things were missed in all the beta testing that must have been done!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svengali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2016 at 1:46pm
I'm glad I spotted your post. I'm experiencing the same issues in P3D v3. It is hell to control, changing pitch simply at random almost. Straight and level is almost impossible. The biggest problem is takeoff - with or without flaps - it simply climbs at an ever increasing angle and into a stall unless I push well forward with the yoke; then, suddenly, it seems to relax the required amount of initial forward pressure.
Agree on the paint jobs too. At first I thought it was my settings given some of the screenshots in the advertising material and manual;but, no, it's the Dove's lack of reflection.
Hoping for an update soon as it's not really making me happy yet, despite loving the modelling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2016 at 11:11am
Just a quick note about the Dove - thanks to all who have purchased it.  We are indeed working on a service pack to address the reported issues. Thanks to everyone who has sent their feedback to us and we hope to have news on the service pack soon.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 5:07pm
John,

The Dove is renowned to be a forgiving aircraft and it's a very conventional design so it's highly unlikely the real thing was unstable in pitch.

I think most AIR files use similar numbers in this table. Obviously you could experiment with different data.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnwillimas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by kevinh kevinh wrote:

Originally posted by be77solo be77solo wrote:

I too think it's a CG problem, as when unloaded she handles nicely without any trim or control issues.

Seems the load is too far aft, even when under gross weight. Makes the Dove fly very unstable.

Not sure where to share this so support sees it, but definitely seems like the problem.

Also, over on AVSIM it was noted that the startup engine sounds are missing... they are referenced in the sound cfg file, but don't actually get installed in the released version.

Great plane though! Thanks JF!

Unloading the plane might make it easier to fly, but it's still longitudinally unstable with the CG as far forward as it will go. That should not be the case and it indicates a problem with the AIR file.

Edit 1:

I've just had a look in the AIR file and table 473 (CM v  AOA) is missing. That could explain a lot.

Edit 2:

I experimentally added table 473 to the Dove AIR file, copied and pasted from the default DC-3 AIR file. A quick flight test shows this makes the Dove stable in pitch (it tries to return to the trimmed speed if disturbed). It should improve handling a lot. This is a rough and ready solution, but it works.

Kevin



Thanks for this. I tried it myself and it certainly makes for a more flyable plane, though whether its more realistic, I couldn't say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by be77solo be77solo wrote:

I too think it's a CG problem, as when unloaded she handles nicely without any trim or control issues.

Seems the load is too far aft, even when under gross weight. Makes the Dove fly very unstable.

Not sure where to share this so support sees it, but definitely seems like the problem.

Also, over on AVSIM it was noted that the startup engine sounds are missing... they are referenced in the sound cfg file, but don't actually get installed in the released version.

Great plane though! Thanks JF!

Unloading the plane might make it easier to fly, but it's still longitudinally unstable with the CG as far forward as it will go. That should not be the case and it indicates a problem with the AIR file.

Edit 1:

I've just had a look in the AIR file and table 473 (CM v  AOA) is missing. That could explain a lot.

Edit 2:

I experimentally added table 473 to the Dove AIR file, copied and pasted from the default DC-3 AIR file. A quick flight test shows this makes the Dove stable in pitch (it tries to return to the trimmed speed if disturbed). It should improve handling a lot. This is a rough and ready solution, but it works.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andresico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2016 at 8:50am
Its very easy to make support se your suggestions. Send a ticket to justflight. They actually want you to do so and have said so various times on different forums. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote be77solo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2016 at 1:37am
I too think it's a CG problem, as when unloaded she handles nicely without any trim or control issues.

Seems the load is too far aft, even when under gross weight. Makes the Dove fly very unstable.

Not sure where to share this so support sees it, but definitely seems like the problem.

Also, over on AVSIM it was noted that the startup engine sounds are missing... they are referenced in the sound cfg file, but don't actually get installed in the released version.

Great plane though! Thanks JF!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ianbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 10:04pm
Just completed a short Circuit, removed baggage and all passengers, she seemed much improved on the handling side and also was able to use full flaps for the arrival. It may well be that the cg for some reason is moving too far aft. I shall try a few more flights over the weekend putting passengers back on board which should move it back aft. Of course when I was having problems I may have been mishandling her. Still like her though.
 I may try altering her to C2 spec at some point.
Happy Flying Ian Br
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Ianbr Ianbr wrote:

This is direct from the Devon C2 Manual and may not be a lot of use,. The Datum is indicated by a plate on the port side of the fuselage 2.60 feet aft of the forward levelling peg.
Forward Limit:
(Item 1) At 9150 lbs - 2.46 inches Forward of Datum

(Item 2) Up to 8625 lbs - 3.70 Inches Forward of Datum
A note for for Item 1 and 2 says Varies linearly for intermediate wheights.

Aft Limit - 7.20 Inches aft of Datum

To keep within the above limitations it may be necessary to carry ballast and to limit the passenger/fuel carried.


Sorry it is the only information in the Devon C 2 Aircrew Manual. Ian Br

Thanks Ian,

It would be enough if we knew where the datum was. It's academic really as what counts in FSX is how the CG is defined in the aircraft.cfg file. In this case the datum is at the default position for FSX (25% MAC) and the load station positions seem reasonable.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Bobcat Bobcat wrote:

That is the thing.  At the moment it noses up quite badly with power off which brings on the stall really quickly.  it then goes in to tail first deep stall which is very hard to recover from, even with full power and full nose down elevator deflection.  

I pride myself on not having prangs in FSX.  Like most experienced users/flyers, I can land anything given a few minutes to test handling and speed range behaviour, but I had the Dove tail first into the runway on my first 2 attempts!  I am wondering if it is a balance thing more than flight dynamics, but I am not an expert on these things.  

Like I say, the developers need a chance to sort it out.  I love the aircraft in general but I just want it made more 'flyable'.

That's strange. I see the Dove nose down with a power reduction from a trimmed level flight condition.  It seems to me the real problem is pitch instability. If you pitch up slightly and release the controls from a trimmed condition the aircraft should go into a phugoid oscillation. The speed should reduce then the nose drops causing speed to increase and so on.  The JF Dove just diverges, slowing down and pitching up, eventually stalling. It's not a sim you can fly hands off for any length of time. Things get worse if you try the autopilot as that can't keep up with the pitch instability either.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ianbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 7:01pm
This is direct from the Devon C2 Manual and may not be a lot of use,. The Datum is indicated by a plate on the port side of the fuselage 2.60 feet aft of the forward levelling peg.
Forward Limit:
(Item 1) At 9150 lbs - 2.46 inches Forward of Datum

(Item 2) Up to 8625 lbs - 3.70 Inches Forward of Datum
A note for for Item 1 and 2 says Varies linearly for intermediate wheights.

Aft Limit - 7.20 Inches aft of Datum

To keep within the above limitations it may be necessary to carry ballast and to limit the passenger/fuel carried.


Sorry it is the only information in the Devon C 2 Aircrew Manual. Ian Br
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Ianbr Ianbr wrote:

Hi all, just finished an evenings flying and have found the above problems mentioned in Aircraft Handling.
 I did however note on this trip poor acceleration on take off with flaps one notch down. On looking at the flap lever i did notice it was indicating 50, and full flap 100. According to FRC one notch should be 20 deg of flap. Full flap should be 60 deg and used only for fields under 4000ft. Also I did feel that the C of G under full load was possibly far out. Also with it left at defaults it is overloaded yet the Devon is rated to a book figure of 9150lbs.

In the aircraft.cfg file flap position 1 is 20 deg and flap position 2 is 60 deg. That's what matters. The flap lever tooltip seems to be showing percentage lever movement.

CG is about 20% as loaded by default. The biggest influence is the 64 kg baggage. What is CG limit in the pilot's manual? If it is too far aft it could well cause pitch stability problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Ianbr Ianbr wrote:

Hi all
I have to admit I enjoy flying the Dove/Devon . I noted your question Re Boost Guages, I have The Pilots Manual, Last update28.3.84. It mentions that in some aircraft the Boost Guages may be replaced by Manifold Pressure Guages. So this RAF Devon C2 may have been this way at sometime.
   If you fly by FRCs Boost pressure X 2 is added to 30 for an approximate translation to Manifold Pressure.
        Going to enjoy another flight this Evening
IanBr

I would have thought manifold pressure gauges were more likely to have been fitted by US customers.

Kevin
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