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Fokker F-27 Prop & Mixture

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Adamski_NZ View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 May 2015 at 2:00am
I have propeller and mixture axes mapped to two rotaries on my X-52 throttle.

I noticed that the prop axis does in fact alter prop pitch (when seen in outside view) - all the way to feathered. Engine revs change accordingly.

Similarly, the mixture control affects fuel flow - all the way to shut-off.

There are no visible levels/controls in the VC to show that anything is happening.

How do both these controls correspond to the real aircraft?

Adam.



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snave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 9:45am
There is no prop control as such in RR Darts. The Power Lever commands appropriate prop RPM depending on engine rpm based on a Constant Speed Unit. 
With mixture, there should be no effect save for the movement of the HP Cock levers, which function as a broad mixture device (more like fuel on/off) which then also mimic a prop control when `feather` commanded.

Best to program out those rotaries using FSUIPC and an aircraft specific setting or else you risk getting things awfully out of kilter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjrhealth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 11:05am
I dont believe any turboprops have mixture since they are basically jet engines with props. Some have ground idle and flight idle but usually thats about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 11:14am
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

Best to program out those rotaries using FSUIPC and an aircraft specific setting or else you risk getting things awfully out of kilter.


Thanks, Snave (& MjrHealth) - for the info and the advice.

I thought they weren't implemented on turboprops, but wondered why the model didn't automatically diasble them.

FSUIPC is the way to go, I agree. Whatever did we do without it? :lol:

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 2:45pm
OK - I think I'm in need of some help here!

I currently have propeller and mixture mapped to 2 different axes in P3D axes config.

I'm trying to get FSUIPC to over-ride those assignations - to effectively disable them - on a per profile basis.

Nothing I try works. Tried:

1) Assigning the axes to unused functions (spoiler/tiller etc.)
2) Setting them to "Unused"
3) Using "Ignore Axis"

P3D still picks up the axis mappings.

Does that mean I really need to [completely] remove them both from default P3D mappings, then add them as required to all aircraft via FSUIPC?

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flightsim481 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2015 at 9:19pm
Hi all,

The throttles work as conventional throttles would in say a Cessna 172.  Although the prop blades are variable pitch they are not directly equivalent to a normal variable pitch prop.  Unlike a normal constant speed unit, the prop rpm actually varies with movement of the main power levers, but there is a constant feed element with the fuel trimmers (which act as a 2nd lower authority throttle). 

The main power lever is a throttle which affects fuel input and rpm.  Power settings at various stages of flight are set using rpm.  The fuel trimmers at the rear of the centre console are really mini throttles which have authority over about 25% of the overall engine fuelling.  Crucially, whilst they do affect fuelling and thus power, they do not affect rpm.  Think of them as a manual fuel adjuster system.

Thus the main power levers affect both rpm and fuelling and thus power, the fuel trimmers affect fuelling and thus power but the rpm does not change.  Consequently, the effects of the fuel trimmers are not actually simulated to the best of my knowledge.

The orange levers are not mixture levers, nor are they condition levers as you would have in a modern turboprop.  They are simply an on off switch for the fuel which have 2 added functions at the extremes of their range of travel.

Forwards of the centre point, fuel is on.  Keep pushing forwards and the flight fine pitch locks are removed.  At this point the blue lights come on.  Aft of the centre point, the levers shut the fuel off, but keep going aft and you get to the feather position for the props.  The key point is that there is no fuel metering, it's just on or off, and there is no direct pitch control for the props.  They are either feathered or not.

There is also no reverse thrust.  Oh and there is no mixture or pilot variable fuel/air control.

I don't have fsuipc installed, but the difficulty is that whilst the HPC lever has a range of movement it is actually just 3 switches.  1 at the mid point for fuel on/off, 1 at the forward position for propeller pitch locks and fully rear for an on/off feather.

Quite how one programs that into fsuipc, I don't know, but that's what the levers do.

Hope that helps,
Rich
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 4:02am
Rich - that's great - many thanks.

I think the problem is that there's usually no harm for NON turboprop aircraft in having prop & mixture axes working, as they won't affect antything.

However - for aircraft like the F-27, you absolutely don't want any spurious inputs from these axes interfering with any of the engine functions. Is there no way that the model can be designed to ignore the usual FSX/P3D mixture and propeller inputs? Or rather - why are the orange levers mapped to an axis at all?

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaunarwal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 4:21am
Adam

It's possible to assign the second throttle axis to unused with FSUIPC. I don't know, why it didn't work on your system. I made a specific profile for the F-27. Try again. If you don't succeed, I can post a screenshot from the settings for you. But not at the moment. I'm at night shift at work.

Daniel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 4:47am
Daniel - thanks - looking forward to that. For some reason, setting axes to "unused" didn't over-ride my default P3D axis configurations.

It's not the second throttle that's the problem: propeller and mixture are.

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaunarwal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 5:11am
Here's my settings:

I have two throttles on my stick. One is defined for all throttles, the other for the propeller. The one for the propeller needs to be disabled. 


Just move the axis you want to define and then set it as you can see

"send direct to FSUIPC Calibration"
and check and select "unused"

I saved as F-27. This is saved in the FSUIPC.ini file. It is only for one aircraft. Every paint needs a single profile like this. 

Dan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 7:39am
Dan - thanks for that. I tried it - still no luck. As long as I still had an axis mapped in P3D, the F-27 would still recognise it - and FSUIPC just couldn't over-ride it.

What I had to do (which wasn't that difficult in the end):

1) Remove P3D axis settings for propeller and mixture.
2) Select a non F-27 aircraft.
3) Go into FSUIPC (not profile specific).
4) Map the two axes as "Send to FS as normal axis.
5) Set the propeller axis to "Axis Propeller Set".
6) Set the mixture axis to "Axis Mixture Set".

Then, for each F-27 Aircraft:
7) Go into FSUIPC **profile specific**.
8) Map the two axes as "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" and set to "(Unused)".

All works great now!

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaunarwal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 12:38pm
Glad I could give a hint.

I also tried to set the two levers for each engine but this didn't work with the given basic P3D setting. I had to remove the axis definition in P3D and can now assign the two levers to each engine. The steering effect in the air is very small. I wonder how it is on the ground. 
I will have to programm every aircraft in FSUIPC for throttle and/or pitch. But I will do this every time before I fly another aircraft. 

Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Adamski_NZ Adamski_NZ wrote:

Dan - thanks for that. I tried it - still no luck. As long as I still had an axis mapped in P3D, the F-27 would still recognise it - and FSUIPC just couldn't over-ride it.

What I had to do (which wasn't that difficult in the end):

1) Remove P3D axis settings for propeller and mixture.
2) Select a non F-27 aircraft.
3) Go into FSUIPC (not profile specific).
4) Map the two axes as "Send to FS as normal axis.
5) Set the propeller axis to "Axis Propeller Set".
6) Set the mixture axis to "Axis Mixture Set".

Then, for each F-27 Aircraft:
7) Go into FSUIPC **profile specific**.
8) Map the two axes as "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" and set to "(Unused)".

All works great now!

Adam.

Er, why didn't you just create the specific Profile the once, name it `Fokker 27`, then set each paint to that? 

Quickerer and cleverer... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:47am
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

Er, why didn't you just create the specific Profile the once, name it `Fokker 27`, then set each paint to that? 

Quickerer and cleverer... Wink

Yep - agreed - that's exactly what I did ;)

Happy camper!
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Adamski_NZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adamski_NZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Blaunarwal Blaunarwal wrote:

I will have to programm every aircraft in FSUIPC for throttle and/or pitch. But I will do this every time before I fly another aircraft. 

Dan - I don't think you need to do this. Just select a non-F27 aircraft and add the axes you need, but without a profile. That way you should get your most common configuration into all the aircraft, then only create the profile(s) for the "oddballs".

Adam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:34am
A snorting bit of FSUIPC profile nonsense is to use a twin with FADEC as a de facto equivalent for the Fokker/Dart combo - the starting point for my Fokker profile is a DA42. 
No mixture or prop control. Just power levers left/right.

Who says this aircraft wasn't advanced? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaunarwal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:35am
Usually I want the propeller pitch on the second throttle lever. But if this has no function, I want to use it as second throttle for twin engine aircraft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:37am
Perfect use for a specific profile, that...
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