This forum is in read-only mode for archive purposes, please use our new forum at https://community.justflight.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Just Chat > Just Chat - General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - God and Physics
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

God and Physics
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Odai View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: God and Physics
    Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:33pm

hello,

I know this sounds like a bit of a strange topic, but the forum has been slow lately. So why not? Tongue

When you look at the way physics has described the universe for us, and how everything seems to be described by "perfect" mathematical structures, do you see the universe as being created (or started, or being intervened in) by a God? Deity is probably the best word to use here.
 
Do you reckon physics denies "God"? Do you reckon it proves the existence of a god? Or do you think physics "does its own thing"?
 
I'll see what people have to say before I comment, as always. LOL 
ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 1062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:38pm
The only way this topic can go is downhill.... Disapprove It's been done to death and just gets people upset with each other. Please, please, please don't talk about it.. Please?
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
Martyn View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar
Development Manager

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Huntingdon, UK
Points: 7615 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:42pm
Quote The only way this topic can go is downhill....


Yee of little faith! As long as people abide by the forum rules then this could be a very interesting topic for discussion. 

We are all adults(well, most of us are). Its always good to question Science/Religion. I'm sure MartinW will have a field day!

Please, please, please talk about it.. Please? LOL
Martyn
Just Flight Ltd
Back to Top
Rich View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Points: 8543 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:47pm
Odai,

I would very strongly advise you to go and get hold of a copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkings. Probably the most interesting book I've ever come across and something everyone should read, both the religious and non-religious amongst us.



Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 1062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:50pm
Yes Martin, but sooner or later someone's going to get offended. Oh well it's your shout, if you don't care, then why should I? Unhappy Please everyone respect that faith is all some people have. Tread lightly.. I have bad memories of this subject from way back. I thought it reflected rather sadly on Just Flight at the time, but it's your call...
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
Martyn View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar
Development Manager

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Huntingdon, UK
Points: 7615 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:53pm
Quote Please everyone respect that faith is all some people have


Of course, this is covered by our forum rules. Both the Science nuts and Religious nuts need to respect eachother. I'm sure people are responsible enough to debate without offending Smile
Martyn
Just Flight Ltd
Back to Top
Rich View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Points: 8543 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:58pm
I'm sure that by "nuts", Martyn actually means "enthusiasts".

I always find it interesting how much of an aversion people can have to having their faith questioned. Surely faith is faith and nothing that people can say should be able to shake a persons belief. Everything else in life can be questioned and debated without having to hold back. A persons opinion of immigration, justice, government and so on can all be denounced , ruminated and questioned but one word against the particular brand of faith they subscribe to and it's tears before bedtime.
I'm not one for insulting people but I do find it an interesting aspect of faith that people are often so apprehensive about debating some of the big questions that need to be looked at.


Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 1062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 1:58pm
I give up.
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 2:51pm
Quote I'm not one for insulting people but I do find it an interesting aspect of faith that people are often so apprehensive about debating some of the big questions that need to be looked at.

I must say I find this very strange, too. Discuss everything except the foundations of a given belief? Why not? (Rhetorical question).

EDIT:

Quote do you see the universe as being created

I can see the creationist vs. scientific arguments appearing rapidly. I'm on the side of science, simply because you end up in a paradoxical situation with the creationist argument. What created the Creator? Ad infinitum.

That's it from me on this subject!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 1062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 3:01pm
I tend to agree with Vulcan on the scientific argument about the physical creation ot this planet personally. I may be wrong though! I don't know for sure. I'm scared this subject might offend people who know otherwise. We all should keep respectful of others beliefs so it makes me nervous speaking of such lofty matters.... Gulp!
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Old Flapper Old Flapper wrote:

The only way this topic can go is downhill.... Disapprove It's been done to death and just gets people upset with each other. Please, please, please don't talk about it.. Please?
No Flappy... it gets 'you' upset with me. .
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

Odai,

I would very strongly advise you to go and get hold of a copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkings. Probably the most interesting book I've ever come across and something everyone should read, both the religious and non-religious amongst us.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. The views of such a highly intelligent man are always worth reading.
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 3:38pm
Flappy... if there's any chance that you might find any of this upsetting, please don't read it. The last thing I would wish to do is cause you or anyone else upset. Understand though that we would find your views interesting and appreciate your perspective if you wish to give it.Smile
 
First, it’s worth remembering, and something that always baffles me on forums is that people who find certain debates uncomfortable still click their mouse and contribute; the golden rule is that if a debate is unpalatable for an individual they shouldn’t click the mouse. Rather that than attempt to control content and dictate the topics to be off limits despite others desire to debate them.

 

The last time this was discussed on the forum, that infamous day when all hell broke lose, [no pun intended] I ended up having an email debate with one of the participants. His name was George. It transpired that he was a qualified theologist and minister. The debate we had was wonderful, not once did we fall out with each other, not once did we become offended by each others views. I ended up having a great deal of admiration for him and the way he handled the very challenging and thought provoking concepts.

 

The only reason I can see that an individual would become upset by discussions of this nature, is if they challenged their views, challenged in the respect of providing a logical explanation for our existence based on hard science and how we ‘know’ the universe to function, rather than magic and superstition.

 
I don’t mean to offend Flappy when I relate the belief in a god to magic, Flappy knows me well enough by now to know that I’m not the sort of person who would ever wish to harm another, either physically or emotionally but I wouldn’t be able to contribute to this debate otherwise.   

 

That’s precisely what the belief in a god is, it’s a belief in the supernatural, magic and forces that have no rational explanation. Rather than grasping the scientific concepts that we know to be true.

 

So why do I believe individuals cling to these beliefs… fear, the fear of death, the fear of non existence, the fear of illness, the fear of something untoward happening to loved ones. And in most cases a complete lack of understanding of the rational scientific concepts involved.

 

Carl Gustav Jung believed that the majority of human beings were programmed with a need to believe in a god, a psychological crutch to ease our passage through life. I don’t know if that’s true, but research has shown that those who believe, live longer on average than those that don’t, Possibly through a reduction in the production of stress hormones like cortisol.

 

One things for sure, and something that George and I both agreed on in our private debate. You can never, ever prove that god doesn’t exist. It’s a concept that relies on blind faith, with a complete absence of plausible evidence. Concepts like that are impossible to disprove, we could have what we believe to be 100% evidence that god doesn’t exist. But then that evidence could have been fabricated by the big man himself to fool us.

 

Science never tells us that god doesn’t exist, only that there is absolutely no evidence.

 
In answer to Odai's question, no physics doesn't deny god, or confirm god's existence, physics doesn't have anything to say regarding concepts with no real evidence.
Back to Top
SamR View Drop Down
First Officer
First Officer
Avatar
Chargin' ma lazers!

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 496 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SamR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 3:55pm
What if heaven is a halfpipe?


Back to Top
Odai View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 7:05pm
hello,
 
Unfortunetly I think I waited too long to post. Shocked
 
This topic has gone rather well in exactly the direction I was afraid of.
 
I want to keep this discussion clear from religion altogether. Firstly, it confuses and muddles the debate over the existence of a god. Secondly I am sure, even if we try, something will happen to offend somebody.
 
I think this is a very important topic to discuss, for a few reasons. Firstly, it's interesting. Secondly, I think it would be even more interesting to discuss the existence of a god without introducing the idea of religion (that's for individuals to believe in, if you're happy with what you follow that's great). Thirdly, it's an enormously important topic. For both religious and non-religious. Surely, if you are religious then the best thing to re-affirm your faith is to think critically of the idea of a god? I know it does so for me.
 
Either way, it doesn't matter. We're not going to use religion for the reasons above. Whether you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish etc, let's just ignore religion for now. .
 
I've had a very quick look at the book on wiki, and from what I understand, the guy is a biologist. If he's trying to argue against the existance of a god, he's done it totally in the wrong way. Firstly, if we do have proof yet to be found of the existance of a god, it does NOT lie in something like biology. I think he is taking the idea of god from books like the Bible. So undoubtedly, he's probably using ideas like evolution etc. These ideas do not mean anything! All he is doing (or trying to do) is criticising the idea of the "biblical God", not a god in general. This seems more apparent after I read that the majority of the book basically attacks religion in general. If he had used physics, then in this case I would be interested.
 
I have thought a lot about what I used to believe were miracles of creation. For example, the complexity of the human brain, our bodies, nature etc. However, as I thought more and more critically, I realised these could just be awesome coincidences, and not the work of a creator.
 
However, with physics the story is different. Let me illustrate an example. From my understanding, Newton firgured out (very well and accurately as we now know) what gravity was about. However, he believed he had hit a dead end, and could not find an explanation. He said gravity was the work of God. These days of course, we know better. (Martin or some other boffin will be able to elaborate, I'm afraid I'd explain incorrectly). Physics gets to the REAL questions. The infinetly small and large - the proper frontiers. It's here we may find our answers if they exist. Maybe one day we'll find we hit another dead end, and cannot explain what we observe without the use of the idea of a creator - a god.
 
Biology and the ideas in the book you reccomended to me RAS have no implications for the existance of a god. It would only challenge the idea of a god as some people interpret from religion (not me).
 
Personally, I think physics shows us the universe is a truly amazing place. This to me definetly, without a single doubt, makes us question whether the universe could really be a coincidence, and that it was actually created. However, I cannot say it proves God's existance indefinetly as everybody in the world would believe in God. Who knows? Maybe we will one day find the answer!! Physics is just awesome. Big%20smile 
 
 
EDIT: I remember this sort of discussion taking place a long time ago on these forums. I remember writing a post much longer than this, and then losing the whole thing after I forgot to type my password. I vowed never to write another long post again. But I did it!!!! Big%20smile
 
 
ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 7:19pm
Quote This topic has gone rather well in exactly the direction I was afraid of.
 
I want to keep this discussion clear from religion altogether. Firstly, it confuses and muddles the debate over the existence of a god. Secondly I am sure, even if we try, something will happen to offend somebody.
Sorry Odai you have completely foxed me there. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency. E.G. God.
 
if you wished to somehow separate religion from the belief in god [if possible] then you should have said so rather than making a statement and then leaving everyone else to debate it. Wink
 
Any way, if you like, substitute all of my references to 'religion' with the word god, it makes no difference.
 
Tell you what, I'll edit my post for you... Wink
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 7:44pm
Quote Firstly, if we do have proof yet to be found of the existence of a god, it does NOT lie in something like biology. I think he is taking the idea of god from books like the Bible. So undoubtedly, he's probably using ideas like evolution etc. These ideas do not mean anything! All he is doing (or trying to do) is criticising the idea of the "biblical God", not a god in general. This seems more apparent after I read that the majority of the book basically attacks religion in general. If he had used physics, then in this case I would be interested.
So it doesn't lie in biology... I think it does actually. The premise is that god created mankind, it's plainly obvious from biology and Darwin's theories that we evolved without any help from god at all. Same for all of the other creatures that inhabit our world and others.
 
God in general or a 'biological' god is irrelevant. The claim is that in either case a supernatural daity created all life, clearly there is no evidence, but as dawking eloquently points out, plenty of evidence for the scientific/biological argument.
 
Quote I have thought a lot about what I used to believe were miracles of creation. For example, the complexity of the human brain, our bodies, nature etc. However, as I thought more and more critically, I realised these could just be awesome coincidences, and not the work of a creator.
Nothing to do with awesome coincidence, the result of millions of years of evolution and microscopic changes over such an enormous span of time are far more powerfully than any god.
 
Quote However, with physics the story is different. Let me illustrate an example. From my understanding, Newton figured out (very well and accurately as we now know) what gravity was about. However, he believed he had hit a dead end, and could not find an explanation. He said gravity was the work of God.
Newton was a religious fanatic, he was totally obsessed with fathoming gods creation. It was his entire reason for existence, he also dabbled in alchemy. He may have given us calculations relating to gravity and the inverse square law for example but he did not 'fathom' gravity, we are still working on that.
 
Quote Biology and the ideas in the book you recommended to me RAS have no implications for the existance of a god. It would only challenge the idea of a god as some people interpret from religion (not me).
No, not at all, it aplies to god in general and in addition the erroneous belief systems.
 
What is your definition of god?
 
Quote Personally, I think physics shows us the universe is a truly amazing place. This to me definetly, without a single doubt, makes us question whether the universe could really be a coincidence, and that it was actually created.
Why? Biology is truly amazing, the fundamental forces are truly amazing and yes quarks are truly amazing but to therefore believe they were made by a supernatural being that used magic is preposterous. And that is precisely the trap that many fall into, we don't know how it works so it's easier to say... 'Oh god made it with magic.'
 
 
 
Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 1062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 8:06pm
I'm not going to take offence personally Martin. What you believe doesn't make a shred of difference to my beliefs and I don't mean that in a bad way - Questions are the product of a healthy mind. I am sure beyond a shadow of doubt that you believe in what you say. I don't fit into any religious group, though you have argued that with me before now. I guess that's just a point of view and not of any matter. I was brought up and remained through most of my adult life a devout athiest and enjoyed a laugh at the expense of bible bashers, God botherers and any other silly names I could think of.
It turned out the joke was on me. I have seen that life is eternal and I have every faith in God (Spirit if you will), not from research, desparation, wanting there to be a God, but by what I have witnessed with my own eyes. Hopefully, I don't need to go into details, but I would if asked and permitted. Please don't think I wish to preach. I have no desire to try and convert anyone. All I know is what I've seen and that I'm not mad. Science is a different matter altogether for now.
Having said that, The notion of God building our planet with His own hands doesn't sit too well in my mind because I can't take that away from scientific improbability.. However, I may be wrong?
Spirit is a different thing altogether. I don't believe science has got there yet, but remain hopeful that it one day will. If at least I take God to be good and the Lord to be law, I'm happy to be on the right path. So assuming God is real, the question arises, who or what is He/she? I have my own thoughts on that and on who Jesus was too.

All of that aside, I completely respect people's beliefs-whatever thay might be or lack of them for that matter. What is really, really important to me these days is that we accept each other and do not cause harm to each other. My belief is that if I hurt you then I hurt myself because I am you and you are me.
What I have said is only of my own thought, I don't claim anything more than that or want you to feel that I'm preaching. I'm not.
Smile
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Points: 13365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 8:08pm
Hi,

When people talk of religion, they generally (I think) talk with reference to the biologic. They talk of "God" making the Earth etc.. but they forget the rest of the Universe. The focus is upon this one planet, and ultimately, human-kind. Why? The 'why' I think is pretty obvious.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 8:38pm

Quote I have seen that life is eternal and I have every faith in God (Spirit if you will), not from research, desparation, wanting there to be a God, but by what I have witnessed with my own eyes.

 I have always had an interest in the supernatural Flappy. If you would be prepared to share your experience with us we would of course comment respectfully. I would offer possible explanations though, so if that bothers you best not to. I can't of course comment further without knowing the nature of your experience. Whatever that experience was it obviously had a very profound effect on you. The nature of that experience could be real, or a construct of ones own mind.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down