This forum is in read-only mode for archive purposes, please use our new forum at https://community.justflight.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Just Chat > Just Chat - General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - This Knife wil blow you apart
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

This Knife wil blow you apart
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

Or even Hitler...


And i say RAS your picture reminds me off



flightboy
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 5:16pm
Oh right, sorry about that.
If we captured him/them tomorrow, I'd say imprison them in poor - yet perfectly reasonable - conditions and let them rot. Publicise them being stuck in isolation, in humiliation and deprivation and that would send a far more powerful message to their followers than executing them - it's like sticking a huge banner in their face saying "watch your leader rot". Obviously, allow video feeds of such a thing so people can see the imprisonment.
Luke Roach
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 5:39pm
Bin Laden if caught should be tried in accordance with the law and sentenced, just like any other criminal.
 
The objective is to protect the human race from his evil deeds. No point in revenge or any publicising of his fate. Deterrents don't put off dictators, and they don't put off terrorists either, or the followers of terrorists.
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:

Oh right, sorry about that.
If we captured him/them tomorrow, I'd say imprison them in poor - yet perfectly reasonable - conditions and let them rot. Publicise them being stuck in isolation, in humiliation and deprivation and that would send a far more powerful message to their followers than executing them - it's like sticking a huge banner in their face saying "watch your leader rot". Obviously, allow video feeds of such a thing so people can see the imprisonment.


Understand what your saying but in our modern world even our prisoners have rights ( manly to playstations, softer beds etc ) but on thinking about it i cant see anyting we could do with him that wudnt make him into a martar. Look at nelson mandella!

flightboy
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 5:59pm
I said "poor - yet perfectly reasonable - conditions"
What are your opinions on the matter?
Luke Roach
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:

I said "poor - yet perfectly reasonable - conditions"
What are your opinions on the matter?


My opinion is a mixed one. I have put great thought into this and i cant see a right or wrong way to do it. If we keep him locked up as your your prefrence he then becomes a martar and even more respected for his "suffering" which im pretty sure even if he was kept in a 5* hotel that is what most muslims would betold in  Afghanistan etc and yet if we execute him we would for sure be attacked more in revenge or even worse play into his hands by sending him to what he would believe is paradise

Which brings me to a question i have had for weeks maybe longer

I understand that most muslims ( esp the ones i have met and know ) are peaceful and talk about their faith as a religion about love and understanding but i have always wondered if they believe that the muslims fighting in Afghanistan will if killed be sent to paradise to claim the rewards they have been promised?

Always intrested me, and although everyone who knows me is aware i have a great respect for other peoples beliefs and life styles i have never felt comftable asking which for me is quite oddErmm

So the answer in summing up is i dont know what i would do .

flightboy
Back to Top
Rich View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Points: 8543 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 6:39pm
Problem is with murdering someone like Bin Laden is that he and his followers with celebrate his victory as a martyr! Locking him up for the rest of his life would be considered a worse punishment by him and his followers
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

Problem is with murdering someone like Bin Laden is that he and his followers with celebrate his victory as a martyr! Locking him up for the rest of his life would be considered a worse punishment by him and his followers


Execute RAS not murder . just my POV! if it dont hurt its not a murder!

flightboy
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 7:00pm
So if I put cyanide in your tea you wouldn't call me a murderer?
Luke Roach
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:

So if I put cyanide in your tea you wouldn't call me a murderer?


I ment in punishment for crime terms! yours is murder! and i only drink green tea Tongue and thats very rare!

flightboy
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 7:09pm
I would never in truth use Potassium Cyanide on anyone!
Perhaps, as was said earlier about the "suffering" bin laden's followers would see him endure, we should put him in a five-star sort of accomodation with video feeds to show just how good we are treating him.
Aternatively, we could put him under house arrest in his cave!
Luke Roach
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2008 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:

I would never in truth use Potassium Cyanide on anyone!
Perhaps, as was said earlier about the "suffering" bin laden's followers would see him endure, we should put him in a five-star sort of accomodation with video feeds to show just how good we are treating him.
Aternatively, we could put him under house arrest in his cave!


I think one of our "cave buster" misiles may have already done that . another thing we will proberly never find out

flightboy
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:25am
If we keep him locked up as your your prefrence he then becomes a martar and even more respected for his "suffering"
 
As Richard pointed out... a martyr, is usually defined as dead. One of the arguments for not executing such people, is to not create a martyr. More likely to be regraded as a martyr dead than incarcerated.
Back to Top
Flightboy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Points: 7396 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flightboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:28am
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

If we keep him locked up as your your prefrence he then becomes a martar and even more respected for his "suffering"
 
As Richard pointed out... a martyr, is usually defined as dead. One of the arguments for not executing such people, is to not create a martyr. More likely to be regraded as a martyr dead than incarcerated.


Yep i have no idea what i would do there martin as the more i think on it the more i see problems with both senarios so lets hope we dont find him! ( unlikley anyway )

flightboy
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:31am
Seems simple to me, put him on trial, convict him if guilty and lock him up. Then throw away the key. Job done!
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:36am
Convict him if guilty. With Osama there's no if about it!
Luke Roach
Back to Top
Martyn View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar
Development Manager

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Huntingdon, UK
Points: 7615 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:41am
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:

Convict him if guilty. With Osama there's no if about it!


With all that drug money I'm sure he could get himself a very good lawyer!

I just hope he will be tried by the UN war crimes tribunal rather than being shipped off to Guantanamo for a Yank 'Fair Trial'. Even someone such as Bin Laden should be convicted properly rather than the whole thing being tainted by the kind of treatment he would receieve in the U.S.

However I can't imagine he will ever be found, thats if he is actually alive....
Martyn
Just Flight Ltd
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 26722 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 9:59am
Convict him if guilty. With Osama there's no if about it!
 
Your opinion and my opinion, and the opinion of most of the world. However...
 
No legal system works that way. He should be given a fair trial and then sentenced accordingly.
 
Agree with MartYn, hopefully tried by the UN, as impartially as possible. Guantanamo Bay is a disgrace and only serves to strengthen the terrorists point of view.
Back to Top
roachy View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2008
Location: London
Points: 1038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 11:05am
Oh, I was never saying that he shouldn't be given a fail trial - I was saying that it is pretty much doubtless that he is guilty, though that doesn't mean he will be found guilty.
Luke Roach
Back to Top
Odai View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: NW England
Points: 3731 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2008 at 2:34pm
I really should start posting more frequently. Shocked
 
Quote
There has ALREADY been evidence of what you ask. Here it is again, and more.
 
 
 
 
 
 
There are numerous other links if YOU can be bothered to look. Not to mention newspapers, books, net video and Saudi's themselves telling me. Are you going to tell us that there is no truth in any of it?
 
And how exactly does that show SA uses amputates for petty crimes? You've just repeated what has already been said, and what we already know.
 
Quote
Yes. You want evidence for every claim and reason any of us make as for it being inhumane, sociologically backward, undeserving... and we give them to you. All you've given us is a few numbers. And who's not to doubt that those were doctored. I don't particularly want you to dazzle me with links, but all you seem to be able to say is a rather childish 'prove it'. It doesn't really say anything in support of your view.
 
I've already given you a link (http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime-crime&all=1) which is full of all sorts of data which shows everything I've said is correct.
 
Quote understand, all you've really said is:
 
"Stuff ethics, cut them up, it's their fault, prove me wrong."
 
Nothing sensible!
 
There must be something seriously wrong for you to have misunderstood the whole debate that badly.
 
Quote
Actually, I  based my opinion on many. I think it was you that based your opinion on one. Apologies if that wasn't the case.
 
But what you base your opinion is irrelevant, how does your opinion show anything?
 
Quote
Very true, and the statement you have just made suggests that... the 'something else' they have, other than killing people, actually works.
 
I think you misunderstood what I am trying to get across. What I'm trying to say is capital punishment is effective as a supplement, rather than a sole solution. Those states with lower murder rates have whatever it is they have which reduces the murder rates; but capital punishment, in those cases, would reduce it further.
 
Quote
Not sure exactly what you mean there, but if you believe that the 'threat' of amputation would have deterred him, then no, I wouldn't agree with that. If you read my links, you will see that such deterrents, in many studies, have not proven to be a deterrent. In my friends case his emotional stae and spur of the moment theft, did not include consideration for any possible punishment. To claim that this would have deterred him without any evidence, apart from singular studies is wrong. The evidence and opinion of many criminologists is that the majority of violent crimes are not pre meditated carefully calculated killings, where the perpetrator carefully cionsiders the consequences. Cold and calculated killings are in the minority. Violent crimes that are committed in the heat of the moment are the majority so I understand, with no consideration of the consequences.
 
A very severe punishment sends a far stronger message, which would mean even those would not normally consider the consequences, are more likely to be deterred. Amputations and executions aren't just "taking it a bit further", it's a bit like a milestone, it's on a different level. They mean something totally different to the criminal. It isn't just a harsher punishment.
 
Quote As you can see, there is research in favor of capital punishment as a deterrent and much against, therefore, no consensus that it is an effective deterrent.
 
I think you mean "and AS much against". Those experiments and investigation yield very little in the way of understanding whether capital punishment is a deterrent. That's why it's still open to debate, and why there are people who use and support it, and why there are people  who don't. As you said, the general consensus at best is that the effect of cap. punishment is unproven.
 
Quote In reality it's 50% it does [a bit] and 50% it makes things worse.
 
Clap
 
But given the right situation Martin, it can be made to work in favor of the population.
 
Quote

But it is still carried out though, and another contributer to this debate regarded the practice as an effective deterrent and morally acceptable. I don't personally subscribe to that point of view, regardless of where, geographically it occurs, or in what culture. If it's morally unacceptable to me, as a free thinking human being, then I will not be a hypocrite and deem it okay somewhere else just because it's another country and their way.

 

We're back to the ethics again. You still haven't answered my question Martin. Do you believe it's better to sacrifice the safety of the population (innocent) so that you don't end up being "inhumane" to the guilty criminals? Which is better?

Quote The objective is to protect the human race from his evil deeds. No point in revenge or any publicising of his fate.
 
Clearly, "revenge for the sake of revenge" is a terrible thing. The punishment serves to provide protection for the population, and a deterrent (which in itself is a way of protecting innocent people). But what if the way in which he is punished is flawed from the beginning?
 
 
 
Quote Problem is with murdering someone like Bin Laden is that he and his followers with celebrate his victory as a martyr! Locking him up for the rest of his life would be considered a worse punishment by him and his followers
 
Quote
As Richard pointed out... a martyr, is usually defined as dead. One of the arguments for not executing such people, is to not create a martyr. More likely to be regraded as a martyr dead than incarcerated.
 
However, assuming cap. punishment is in place, is it worth changing the normal course of justice simply because of his followers' opinion of him?
ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down