146-200 Observations |
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Deltahotel
P/UT Joined: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Wallingford, UK Points: 105 |
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Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 10:33pm |
Patrick, "Deltahotel, you are right, there are roll spoilers on the 146, which are visually modelled on this rendition, but they seem to have little/no effect. If you set the spoilerons=1 in the .cfg, you will see the correct indication in the powered flight control little gauges there as they move. Strangely though, with spoilerons=1 set, the speedbrake opens when you roll left! Obviously some work needed there. With spoilerons at =0, the gauge indications no longer work. They still function visually correctly externally." I agree with all that, but are you sure you can see the outboard spoilers move externally? I've checked and see nothing. (And that speedbrake opening is absolutely proportional to the left aileron input and to the movement on the left mini-gauge). I've done this in the .cfg for a good response and reasonable crosswind landing control: aileron effectiveness =4.0 rudder effectiveness =3.0 roll stability=1.0 Dave H
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Deltahotel
P/UT Joined: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Wallingford, UK Points: 105 |
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Well that's interesting. I have never seen any spoileron movement in my outside views.
Dave H |
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gojozoom
Check-In Staff Joined: 13 Aug 2012 Points: 2 |
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I'd like to join the "don't like the FDE" club. The reason why this is so frustrating is that the rest of the add-on (External, VC, Systems) is fantastic (IMHO). However if you happen to fly VFR with it, try to fly a proper pattern...good luck :) With a 30 degree bank angle the aircraft either starts falling like a rock, or just looses airspeed and stalls in 10 seconds. To avoid it, you need to apply 90% throttle - I don't think that's realistic. In general the plane has a nose up attitude even in cruise, and it is extremely hard to achieve a "balanced" approach. Taxiing is a nightmare due to the 5-miles turn radius (turn angle and contact point issue). I'm sure that Justfligh/CLS can make this a lot better. If the dynamics are fixed, I can call it a 5-star add-on.
Dan PS: I did send feedback about this using the appropriate channels. |
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plhought
Check-In Staff Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Location: Calgary Points: 6 |
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I sent a quick list that included many of the things discussed here to JustFlight last week. Haven't received any response but i'm sure both JF/CLS are on it.
I've talked to a 146 pilot who works in my area and he explained the control response at all speeds is very good on the 146. Rudder effectiveness is also very high on teh real airfraft, as the horizontal stab and rudder are a bit oversized for that control needed at the lowish airspeeds the 146 is capable of. Deltahotel, you are right, there are roll spoilers on the 146, which are visually modelled on this rendition, but they seem to have little/no effect. If you set the spoilerons=1 in the .cfg, you will see the correct indication in the powered flight control little gauges there as they move. Strangely though, with spoilerons=1 set, the speedbrake opens when you roll left! Obviously some work needed there. With spoilerons at =0, the gauge indications no longer work. They still function visually correctly externally. There is also some systems related minor bugs like the wrong hydraulic pressures and electrical voltages being shown. Just Flight and CLS do need to do some work, but I really think this aircraft has a good shot. Patrick |
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Deltahotel
P/UT Joined: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Wallingford, UK Points: 105 |
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I will put this to the support route if necessary, but this is a good place for observations and discussion where all can see it and agree or disagree. This 146 is beautiful to see and has huge potential, but ...
I have to agree with taxerrn's general comments about controllability. I feel the flight model needs a lot of tweaking. I have just put the 146 into a level turn at 4000ft and 250kts, on autopilot. It took nearly 6 minutes for a 360 degree turn - try that in a holding pattern! Without autopilot, at 30 degrees of bank, full rudder just about gets the slip ball centered in the turn. The tiny yaw induced by killing 2 engines on same side is also unreal. The 146 has a lovely clean high-lift wing to give low approach and touchdown speeds for short field landings - the lift dump with weight-on-wheels uses 6 big spoilers for wheelbrake efficiency and is very well modelled here. But the 146 at these low approach speeds should also have good manoeuvreability - good roll rate for aileron inputs, which this model most certainly has not. I think the real 146 has 2 more spoilers (spoilerons?), one on each wing outboard of the lift dumpers for roll augmentation linked to aileron displacement, and this is not modelled. For sure I don't expect PMDG standards, but this is basic to the machine. I have tried mods to the .cfg (spoilerons=1 has no effect), and I notice that large aileron input causes a proportional speed brake movement, which of course is wrong but may be a clue to lack of spoilerons? Doubling the aileron and rudder effectiveness scalars and reducing the roll stability has improved the handling, but she really needs those spoilers to work. All this is identical with my yoke and pedals or a simple stick with rudder twist, so its not a calibration problem. |
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jrwentz
Check-In Staff Joined: 05 Aug 2012 Location: Panama City, Fl Points: 2 |
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Found the no start problem with engines 1&4. Filled both outer tanks with fuel and the engines now start as they should. Still have a problem with the Config Tool having no keyboard response and locking the computer up. The aircraft does fly well and is quite detailed.
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Joseph Wentz
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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No problem, just trying to help. I was merely suggesting a possible controller calibration issue, as no one else seems to have the same problerm. It appeared system specific.
I suggest you do as Martyn suggested and raise the issue via JF support.
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Martyn
Just Flight Staff Development Manager Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Huntingdon, UK Points: 7615 |
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Quick reminder in case anyone is unaware.
Please direct any issues you having to our support team: http://www.justflight.com/support-contact By all means discuss your issues here, quite a few issues discussed here are not bugs as pointed out by other forum members. However we can only guarantee an official response if they come to us via the correct channels (support form). |
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Martyn
Just Flight Ltd |
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signmanbob
Check-In Staff Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Location: Alabama, USA Points: 42 |
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I am another very happy customer. I have followed the manual carefully and find this simulation to fly very well and the autopilot works fine. I love the more complicated autopilot. It makes the aircraft a lot of fun.
I would love it if it had a clickspot on the main warning panel to bring up a 2D version. Even with EZCA set up and TrackIR, it would be a lot easier to see the warnings with a pop-up like you have the warning lights on the overhead set up. The exterior model is beautiful. Someone must have spent a lot of time making those landing gear and linkage. They look awesome. I fly this BAe 146 mostly using VOR to VOR and it has been a lot of fun. I have a few very minor issues that, I'm sure will be taken care of, but this is now one of my favorite aircraft. |
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flyforever
P/UT Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Location: us Points: 121 |
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To correct above statement regarding the autopilot, I found at higher than recommended approach speeds(200 kts) it's very difficult to intercept the glide scope and make stick. However, at 140 kts, the autopilot appears to function accordingly. I've made only one flight at the same airport where I had been having difficulty with the ILS, and it seemed to work flawlessly.
tc |
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FV
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mrrob69uk
Check-In Staff Joined: 05 Aug 2012 Location: London, UK Points: 1 |
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You guys are lucky you have got as far as being able to use the product!! I downloaded it on Friday evening and have not been able to use yet! It downloaded without any problems, however when I selecting to fly the aircraft, in the preview panel all you can see are the internal seats and a vague outline of where the fuselage should be. I have tried starting a flight but again, when you select any of the external views, all that is visible is the interior seats hovering on the runway with no external fuselage or wings etc!
I have never experienced issues like this on any add-on aircraft.
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flyforever
P/UT Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Location: us Points: 121 |
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Well, I need to check to see whether the aicraft bears north after intercept. I guess the biggest issue is that the localizer needle doesn't move until the plane is almost right on it. At this point the plane starts to make the turn, but it's too late, and it starts to go into a zig zag behavior until (sometimes) it loses it altogether. I've noticed this behavior when flying gps and intercepting waypoints. The plane simply starts turning too late. This is fine when flying a gps flight plan, but an ILS approach requires more advance response. The only way to reduce this behavior during approach is to slow down the aircraft considerably, even before it starts its descent on final approach.
tc |
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FV
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mikeyboy
Check-In Staff Joined: 15 May 2008 Location: Abingdon Points: 41 |
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Thanks Martin W,
Did I see an answer to my radio question in your response? The FMC takes over the radio one stack and therfore I am not sure how to tune into radio stack 2 |
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Does the aircraft fly off to the north when it intercepts the localizer?
Best regards, Vulcan. |
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flyforever
P/UT Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Location: us Points: 121 |
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thanks for the reminder on TAS vs IAS. You are correct. Can anyone please give me an airport with ILS that the BAE appears to intercept correctly. For some reason, the ILS system now appear to be totally broken. I am using LIMC, Italy. I need to make sure that my procedure is not faulty.
tc |
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FV
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Because you are confusing TAS and IAS. TAS (True Airspeed) is the measure of the velocity of the aircraft through the air, allowing for reduced air density and altitude. IAS (Indicated Airspeed) is the air "seen" by the pitot tube at a given altitude. With reducing air density, less air enters the pitot tube (even though the velocity of the remaining air is higher), and so the indicated airspeed reduces as you climb higher. Consequently, to cruise at 350 kts TAS, at 20000 ft you need to be cruising at about 250 kts indicated. This will also help with your climb issue. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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flyforever
P/UT Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Location: us Points: 121 |
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There are clearly some issues in this initial version. I think that an upgrade should look at the following:
1. airspeed vs pitch while descending-- the plane slows down despite the pitch down attitude. 2. autopilot at times fails to engage completely, and when it does, it fails to anticipate the turn properly, thereby always overshooting the "center" runway. 3. transition from ALT to Glidescope is tricky. If engaged when plane is not practically near the glide scope indicator, it will climb at maximum pitch! 3. The engines appear underpowered. Any setting under 80% will bring the airspeed under 200 knots. I don't know enough about the real plane to state this as an issue, though. 4. radar digital altimeter is difficult to read-- too blurry. 5. Perhaps the pitch lines and numerical indicators in the artificial horizon should be a different color? White just doesn't show up very well. But I consider this as teething issues for the next upgrade. tc |
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FV
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texerrn
Check-In Staff Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Location: United States Points: 8 |
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I understand my assessment will be considered negative. It is for the flight model.I know my negative comments will not be appreciated by those who put in a lot of hard work. But I stand by my original statement. I just tried again to land at EGJJ. I made a near perfect approach and landing. It can be done. However I have been practicing for three days. Using the nautical term, It doesn't "respond to the helm". meaning it takes undue effort to use all control surfaces. Rudder, elevator and ailerons feel like they are operating with ice on them. I know that this can be easily adjusted in the aircraft configuration. I have tried several landing speeds, different flap setting and weights. In my opinion it just is not right. I don't choose to get into comparisons with other products. But I will attempt a landing with the JF BAe146 then try another aircraft and the results are dramatically different. It is not my controls, FS settings or ability. I for one am not above tweaking the numbers in the aircraft config, to see what happens. I have over 5000 flightsim hours, which is easily documented. I have some real time hours as well. Not in the BAe I admit. The handling model could be improved. I sincerely hope someone with more knowledge can provide an improved solution. Sorry that is my opinion. texerrn
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Yep, PMDG are synonymous with extreme systems modelling, even with their interim releases like the JS41. So it's not really appropriate to compare. For those complaining about "perceived" bugs, even the JS41 has them. Graphical anomalies unless you turn icing off, and flickering bezel lines around instruments unless you use very high AA.
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mikeyboy
Check-In Staff Joined: 15 May 2008 Location: Abingdon Points: 41 |
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I have just purchased the BAE146-200 aircraft and Wow! am I not disappointed. I have been eagerly awaiting it's arrival on stand and I have to say I do like it. Not in quite the same league as PMDG JS41 but it is fun to fly. External views of flaps etc are stunning. I have just taken ownership of a Seitek yoke and throttle and am having loads of fun flying this one it is certainly hands on. Keep these great aircraft coming Just Flight. I realise this is not a technical issue forum but wondered. I use VOXATCX and with the new upgrade to give an FMC option, the FMC takes the place of the 1st radio panel. I am therefore unable to use the radio. How do I swap to the second radio panel so VOXATC X will work? I have checked manual. Thanks |
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