F-4 Phantom Retirement |
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tom burnside
P1 Joined: 31 Oct 2008 Location: portsmouth,UK Points: 868 |
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Posted: 14 Jun 2012 at 9:41pm |
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The Phantom has been in service for a good 50 years now and its still going strong. Ive read that Turkeys just upgraded theres to Terminator 2020 Irans still got them and so has Germany. I also read that the Germans are going to retire theres this year and replace them with the Typhoon. But when will all the phantoms be retired I hope it not anytime soon I still havent seen one flying yet.
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Dont Let Her Die She Wants To Fly
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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The US flies them as drones - they convert about 12 a year from the boneyard to QF-4s, but the converted ones retain the capabilty to be flown by a human pilot from the cockpit. That AC has given good, long service, but the C-130, B-52 and Tu-95 beat it by a decade and all are still in service. The DC-3 soldiers on in some places (but not in military service) and it was old when those others first flew. |
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John Allard
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papeg
Chief Pilot Joined: 25 Mar 2009 Location: CA Points: 1434 |
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The U2 is still flying strong also.
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Greg
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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Sure is - first flight in 1955. Also KC-135 (1956). EDIT: Harrier prototype flew in 1960.
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John Allard
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tom burnside
P1 Joined: 31 Oct 2008 Location: portsmouth,UK Points: 868 |
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So the Phantom still has a good few years left in it.
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Dont Let Her Die She Wants To Fly
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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Quite possibly it does. Bear in mind all the other AC listed except Harrier are not fighters and some (U2, Harrier) have special capabilities that give them some ongoing value because they are unique. The F-4 really doesn't possess any specialized characteristics or capabilities that give it ongoing value, other than just being bought and paid for and in current service. The decision to retire any military type is a complex set of variables that include the anticipated future operating and maintenance costs of the existing type vs. the acquisition, operating and maintenance cost of the new type - all of which is little removed from crystal ball work. Also in the mix is the availability, current and future, of spare parts and contract support services, remaining airframe life (total hours, pressurization cycles, etc.) and their ongoing suitability for the role they're filling. Especially significant for fighters is the radar, other sensors (if any), avionics and weapons systems. If they are old and outdated, upgrading those to current standards is generally somewhere along the continuum between costly and difficult and downright impossible. Any 4th or 5th generation fighter is going to hand the F-4 it's butt in air combat these days, all other things being equal. It's got the RCS of an ocean liner and leaves a smoke trail that can be seen from a long distance. It's big and heavy with no special maneuverability tricks. Raw speed is probably it's forte, but unless there's a tanker nearby, that's a card that must be played carefully. Most countries, however, don't have the fiscal latitude to have the best so for all, some compromises are necessary. I think you will see F-4s in continued use for a few more years, but more and more in limited, specialized roles like the QF-4, SEAD, etc, as opposed to front line air superiority fighters. They just aren't in the front rank for that any more and haven't been since F-14, F-15 and F-16 came into service. I'm pretty sure the major players will shed them soon. The contract for the QF-4 conversions is on its last cycle. I suspect Germany and Japan will retire their F-4s fairly soon. Places like Turkey may hang on to them for a while longer unless someone makes them an offer they can't refuse for F-35As, newer block F-16s, etc.
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John Allard
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dodgy-alan
Chief Pilot Joined: 16 May 2008 Location: bognor regis Points: 2994 |
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Dont forget the Lockheed T33 is still in service and that dates from 1943 via the F-80 shooting star! The DC-3 IS still in military service although in small numbers. A lot of them are now running on Turboprop power. Most are in South America and Africa. They tend not to show up on a lot of records as they've had so many owners their records are somewhat vague to say the least !! In the UK the venerable Gloster Meteor is still in service used by Martin Baker to test ejection seats. The Meteor too has its roots in 1943.
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The light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train coming the other way !
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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According to the news, there's one less Turkish F-4 in the world. The Syrians claim to have shot one down inside their airspace.
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John Allard
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Hot_Charlie
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 1839 |
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Yes. All very murky. It'd be interesting to see what actually happened. It's all very well the press saying the wreckage has been found in international waters (at 13nm from the Syrian coast), but that doesn't mean that 10 seconds or so earlier it was within the 12nm boundary. I doubt the Syrians would bother asking any questions at the moment, particularly with any fast moving, unidentified targets. |
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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They have been a little trigger-happy these past few months, even with stationary human targets.
Turkey says today that Syria has fired on another of their AC. Maybe next time they should send two, with one about ten miles in trail, armed with HARMs. John
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John Allard
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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I wondered if they were doing this already - the F-4 is often used for that, and recon. Hmmmmm........ Apparently the second aircraft was shot at with a laser-guided MANPAD. They are going to be very hard to take out as they are mobile. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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scampy
First Officer Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Location: russia Points: 443 |
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Are they made by tenalady? If it was it could be either side who knocked that plane down. Also how would they know if it was in Syrian or Turkish territory when they fired. I mean it would be a quick radar operator who could give a command to.shoot them down to a group of infantry. To me this is an action of a rogue element either military or rebel. I think turkey are doing well to keep their cool, but saying that I don't know their military capability, if they launched an air attack against Syria would they get a very bloody nose it's not like bombing Kurd rebels we know the Syrians have some good air defences. |
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Well MANPAD is a point and shoot device, so a quick phone call and they shoot it down. Not like a RADAR guided SAM that takes time to acquire and track.
I agree though - could be a rogue element trying to cause trouble.
They were talking up their capability on the radio the other day. The F-4 is often used for SEAD and recon. Maybe the MANPAD was protecting something the Turkish were looking at... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Turkish_military_aircraft I think they could kick the arse of Syria if they wanted. Good tech, and plenty of it. Best regards, Vulcan. |
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allardjd
Moderator in Command Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Florida - USA Points: 4506 |
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Assuming a MANPADS engagement range of about 4 miles places the shooter in the middle of an 8 mi. diameter circle. Assuming the target AC flies directly over him maximizes the time the target is in his engagement circle. If the F-4 is travelling 600 mph he's in the 8 mile diameter circle for about 45 seconds. That would have to be a pretty quick phone call, and if the missile is fired more than a few seconds after the AC passes over it's going to be in a tail-chase that it will probably lose. The Phantom only has to get to the 4 mile ring before the missile and the missile will run out of gas before catching him. I don't quite think that's how this went down. There's speculation the Syrians were trying to prevent the photo-recon equipped F-4 from photographing the nearby seaport, where it's suspected that arms shipments are arriving from those supporting them, i.e. Iran, China, Russia. |
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John Allard
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scampy
First Officer Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Location: russia Points: 443 |
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As you have said it would have to be a very fast reaction time so they were either sat waiting for an aircraft or it was a pot shot by some guys who thought we`ll have him. If this was the case how would they know if the aircraft was over territorial waters of Turkey or Syria even for a few seconds. Also to defend a port im sure they would install something a little more potent than a Manpad or hand held AA weapon. If the Russians wanted to take weapons they would use their own port at Tartus which is a fair way south to photograph that place it would have to be one hell of a navigation error to get there. But it seems the route through Turkey is used by the Americans to supply weapons to the rebels. http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2012/06/21/cia_aiding_those_supplying_weapons_to_syria_rebels/ Two conflicting reports about about Tartus and its usefulness. http://www.rferl.org/content/explainer-why-is-access-/24619441.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18616191 As you know Russia is already sending troops to this port to defend it citizens there and the port, I would not like to be either a Syrian soldier or a rebel who gets in their way. Do you remember this ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport I dont like your music but good on you James Blunt Vulcan I think any military action over Syria is going to be costly in terms of life and equipment its not like bombing a middle eastern nation back to the middle ages. It seems the F4 still has a use in the modern theatre of war. |
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