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MS Flight latest and simmers aren't happy.

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Rich View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 10:20am
All present and correct...

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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 11:35am

Some of the comments on Youtube are amusing.

Some people are so creative with their crudities.
 
Apparently they've been hammered on the Flight facebook page too.
 
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twright View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 12:43pm
I agree with most of the comments on Facebook and over on the Avsim forums regarding the latest news on Flight. It's obvious to me that by dropping the word 'Simulator' out of the name, they have done the inevitable and made an aviation themed video game in the hope that it'll appeal to the masses. I don't think it'll end well for them. By doing this, they've already alienated most of their existing fan base.

Myself, like many other members here and on other community sites like this one, see Flight Sim as so much more than a computer game. It's my hobby, like others collect stamps or do gardening, and it's something i've been very 'into' for a significant portion of my life. It enables me to have the satisfaction of piloting successfully some of the most complex machines on the planet in a realistic, beautiful 3D living world (the whole world). It's also been a great learning tool. It's taught me many skills not least patience and perseverance and taught me about aviation and aircraft procedures necessary not only in simming but in the real world too, and no doubt because of it I have a far better understanding now of these than I did before. It's inspired me, and frustrated me at times, but I wouldn't have it any other way!

Flight makes a mockery of all of this, and reduces this immersive hobby to flying around a single, tiny island recklessly and dangerously, all to collect gold coins, 'aerocaches' and earn experience points to see how we stack up on a leaderboard against our fellow 'gamers'. It's something akin to a desktop version of PilotWings Resort on the 3DS. The thriving third party network that has kept FSX alive for years after Microsoft abandoned it has been locked out, and all us as consumers have to look forward to as far as Flight is concerned is the daily 'aerocache' hunt, and maybe the odd new (default quality) aircraft or airport scenery Microsoft create once every few months.

To us hobbyists it's far too restricting without world coverage and the third party developers who have supported us and whom we have supported over the years. Even the 'gamers' that Microsoft are trying to market this product to are going to get bored of it when they find there's no action, dogfights, or the ability to recreate 9/11. I'm thoroughly disappointed, and feel that this is sadly somewhat the end of flight sim as we know it.

Sorry for the pessimism, but I wanted to voice my opinion!
Kind regards,
Tom
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 4:15pm
and feel that this is sadly somewhat the end of flight sim as we know it.
 
Don't think so Tom, nowhere near the end. We still have FSX, and a truck load of add-ons, not to mention a plethora of developers making new add-ons for FSX.
 
I hate to say it, but we have no devine right to a new version of FSX. It's Microsoft business, and their creation, if they choose to go down this route then it's their prerogative, no matter how insane we think they are.
 
Rejoice in the fact that we will have FSX for a long time yet, plus clever people developing for it.
 
Who knows, MS might rethink their strategy some time in the future and consider the hard-core simmer.
 
If not, we vote with our feet and don't buy it. Meanwhile X-Plane continues to develop, along with other alternatives.
 


 
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 4:28pm
Do you like this better Tom?
 
Smile 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 4:30pm
It's not the end of Flight Sim as we know it - far be it. It's simply a continuation of business-as-usual, and at least now we know that and that Flight is not going to be a whole new world for add-on developers to adjust to, everyone can get back to their FSX projects undisturbed.

Yes, M$ were lying through their teeth when they said there'd be something for the sim enthusiast in Flight, but side from them telling porkies - nothing has changed, execpt if M$ ever do anything in the Flight Simulator line ever again, they sure as hell better get it right.

I for one am slightly relieved - no need to re-write AH for Flight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

Do you like this better Tom?


AeroFly FS is currently no better than Flight! Switzerland area only, hardly any airports, no SDK, no 3rd party, no AI, no ATC, no dynamic Weather, no jets.

Looks a damn sight better though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 6:23pm
Well, yesterday, after much hoping of one day seeing this, my dream was finally realized, though still in development. I get to fly the best sim in the world over the best terrain in the world.

The only reason I had left to fly FSX has gone. If you have MegaScenery HawaiiX, you'll recognize this. This is not MSFS.





Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

Quote Let me also add that of the organizations invited to Redmond, there was only one developer present and they will remain nameless.
Either Aerosoft or PMDG. They are the only major players that could attract such an offer from MS. I'm guessing PMDG from comments I have read there previously. Looks like Falcon may yet take the title of longest running flight simulator. Best regards, Vulcan.

 

Flight1?

Though they do some dev, they are mainly publishers.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 8:07pm
In my opinion, Microsoft have just lost the plot as far as the word "simulation" goes. So nothing to see here, move on, move on!Thumbs%20Down
 
Hey Mr. Vulcan, whasssat you posted. Its Falcon 4 is it not?  Still a great simulation, after all these years? Also can run on a Pentium with 512 mb RAM..................ehhTongue
 
I echo what Tom said about FSX. It continues to be supported very well by clever coders. We even have a new AES with smart new airport vehicles, all free. Just buy the airport services for a few pounds. FSX will remain a vital true simulation. I was watching "Ice Pilots" the other evening and the two young Buffalo co-pilots were practicing their circuits using FSX, an Elite Yoke and what suspiciously looks like the Just Flight DC3 model!  This was prior to flying the owner, Joe, on a final check ride to determine their future job prospectsBig%20smile  Nice one guys.
 
For Simulations, don't forget our friends at DCS. Their simulation credentials are quite impeccable. Their mission/ campain GUI simulation extension is clever and absorbing. It provides a near total battlefield creation scenario, for anyone with the time and ability to learn the system.  Their A10c and the helo sim Black Shark are deep, intensive simulations. The systems are modelled as per real world. If you have the manuals, they are complex, accurate and satisfying.
 
I fear we are some way off a new FSX simulator. One that will be as well supported as the original. Perhaps with the exponential increase in the graphic power of the modern war/FPS type "Games", we may see something emerge. However, with consoles as the money maker, I doubt it.
 
If all there was in future was MS Flight. I for one would quietly slip into old age flying model aircraft and watching re runs of DambustersBig%20smile
 
Regards and happy new year to all. 
 
 
You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 8:15pm
Indeed it is! It is slowly being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, having received a whole new flight model (5 years in development) that is so accurate you can even replicate the results of the high altitude trans-sonic departure conducted recently at Edwards AFB, all new 3D modelling for the aircraft, updated graphics engine to support DX9.0c, and a new probabilistic weather engine to go with the new flight model.

Up next is a whole new terrain engine, but because of the mind-blowing way the campaign engine was developed, it is inextricably linked to the terrain system, so it will be a case of finding a way to seperate the visuals from the underlying logic required to make the dynamic campaign engine function (FYI, Falcon bankrupted Microprose as it was so long in dev).

An original dev team member said they would have never developed it had they known what they were going to end up creating. They even used Cray Supercomputers to develop the algorithms on, then had to scale them down to make them run on 1997 hardware. It was originally developed for the DoD. Even today, nothing gets remotely close to what was achieved with Falcon.

Modern games and MSFS, only really ever focus on the graphics. Falcon focused on the substance. The flight model in MSFS is a fantasy. Nothing about it is realistic at all. At least DCS developed a real flight model for their sims. Falcon and DCS are nearly equal in this regard, with Falcon being slightly ahead due to subtleties missing in DCS.

Quote In my opinion, Microsoft have just lost the plot as far as the word "simulation" goes.

Why do you think they fired ACES and dropped the word "simulator" from the title? If they tried to market "Flight" as a simulator, they'd be busting marketing laws!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 10:38pm
With regards FSX activation, to note, if there was a requirement... there are some straightforward ways around it, if you know where to look etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 12:28pm
Can't see how it would be legal for them to switch off activation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

Can't see how it would be legal for them to switch off activation.

We have yet to see a major online games retailer go bust, so what happens when that happens has yet to be tested.

Plenty of companies say "if we go bust we will remove activation", but after they have gone bust the employees might not even be allowed back in the building to make that happen.

I hate online anything. As much as I like the idea of Amazon's online movie system, I refuse to use it as I want physical copies not relying on crap internet connections or them staying in business. It is far too dependent on a technology that is not guaranteed to be here 5 years from now. The internet is not a telephone system - there are far too many pieces to the puzzle that need to stay together for it to work, and more and more people are daily demanding faster connections. It will break at some point. That ignores attempts by Government and industry to regulate and control the internet.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomcollingwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 2:47pm
I stand by what I said a few months back in the Future of Flight Simulation and Just Flight post. From experience every time an upcoming game/sim product claims to be a great product for complete beginner to the experienced simmer, it is going to lack depth and detail and basically be a load of arcade rubbish with some nice visuals. Hello Codemasters!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I know I am still being premature given I have never tried it but I think the evidence is starting to stack up.

I think Martin is being too polite over Microsoft on this occasion. Look at the team that has created Age of Empires Online which contained members from the old empire studios ......... my god.

It also seems strange to me that they seem to think there is such a potential fan base out there for casual flight , I would also be willing to bet that the serious simmer market is much wider and there for the long term.

I blame global warming ;-)

Hey ho,

Tom


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattGarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 5:34pm
I don't think this has been mentioned but a very good post has been made by Robert from PMDG over avsim: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/358874-some-thoughts-on-flight/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

Can't see how it would be legal for them to switch off activation.


Plenty of companies say "if we go bust we will remove activation", but after they have gone bust the employees might not even be allowed back in the building to make that happen.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
 
That's not going to happen to Microsoft is it though. Anyway, as magic said, there are ways round activation if such a thing transpired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by tomcollingwood tomcollingwood wrote:


I think Martin is being too polite over Microsoft on this occasion.



 
I don't think so, It's just a fact of life that they can do with their own software what they like. That's life I'm afraid.
 
Anything can happen in the future, if MS feel a change of direction is required, they won't think twice about it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 6:11pm
Says it all really doesn't it...
 
Quote To put it a bit more bluntly: It became obvious to me very early-on that MS was looking to get a piece of the secondary market in which companies like PMDG, Aerosoft, Flight1, Level D and the like make our living. This idea has been looming over the horizon since at least late 2005 when a gaggle of FS developers were invited to Redmond to view the upcoming FSX. There were hints dropped at the time, and behaviors that, to me indicated a growing desire on the part of MS to learn just how much money the secondary market was generating.

There could only be a single reason why they would want to know this information...

 
Don't Microsoft make enough bloody money?
 
What are their assets again... $41 billion isn't it?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 12:15am
I've been thinking about where our portion of the market (hardcore simmers, but still casual consumers) are going to go.

It's obvious Flight will not be the answer. Microsoft have made that quite clear that we are not the market they're aiming for. Whether they've made the right decision or not and whether it will be a success or a total flop is down to them, but Flight is what it is and being in beta, aside from bug fixes, it's unlikely to change now.

X Plane 10 I don't feel is mature enough yet to be a viable option. I have too many issues with it to give up what I have now and move to it. Credit where credit is due, I do commend Laminar Research in their efforts. They're a small development team and what they've done is quite remarkable. But personally I feel it still needs a lot of work if it wants to attract the MSFS crowd.

A lot of people are mentioning Prepar3D, and it does look impressive and sound great. But I don't think we're the target market for that either. Its geared for commercial training rather than the casual desktop user, and the extortionate price reflects that. Maybe at some point Lockheed Martin might release a more consumer oriented version, and we could finally get that FSX SP3, but I doubt it.

Lastly, we could just stay with FSX. A lot of people, myself included, are moderately happy with what they've currently got in terms of add ons and performance. However FSX is itself getting old. It was already built on a dated engine when it was released. Add on developers do a fine job within the limitations of the engine, and personally I don't think it looks 'old' - I can still wow people when I show them ES Guernsey in all it's detail! But its no longer supported, and could be one driver or OS update away from breaking permanently. As well as this, how long will it be supported by third party developers. Orbx have hinted it could be another 5-10 years?

What I really pray for, is if Microsoft have hidden up their sleeve a Pro version of Flight, intended as a direct replacement to FSX. Or even a SP3 for FSX which fixes its bugs and makes it more stable. I doubt either of these will ever happen though.
Kind regards,
Tom
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