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allardjd View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Afghan President Says Taliban Used Child Bomber
    Posted: 01 May 2011 at 5:48pm

Afghan President Says Taliban Used Child Bomber

http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20110501/2d6f5e72-5b2d-41d6-8674-418357e5bc72

President Hamid Karzai is accusing the Taliban of using a 12-year-old as a suicide bomber and sending him to carry out an attack on Sunday that killed a local council member and three other civilians in eastern Afghanistan.

Karzai says the bombing targeted civilians and that the use of children and youths in terrorist attacks is inhumane and un-Islamic.

"...the use of children and youths in terrorist attacks is inhumane and un-Islamic." seems like an odd statement to me.  Perhaps it is just poor translation or poor reporting or poor writing, but as quoted it seems to suggest that terrorist attacks by older homicide bombers would be humane and Islamic. 

Probably not what Karzai actually meant - most likely another case of the media getting it wrong, or deliberately sensationalizing it. 

Of course the fact remains that the Taliban probably did actually use a 12 year old as the instrument of murder.  I wonder if he knew?  Nice bunch...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:13pm
Quote Perhaps it is just poor translation or poor reporting or poor writing, but as quoted it seems to suggest that terrorist attacks by older homicide bombers would be humane and Islamic.

Remember we are talking about Jihad here, not just plain terrorism. Jihad is legitimate under (extreme?) Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:16pm
Quote Perhaps it is just poor translation or poor reporting or poor writing,
 
I suspect it wasn't intended to mean that John. Don't think it was implying that adult suicide bombers are humane and islamic. At least i hope not. Confused 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:18pm
I don't think so given the lack of such comments during other attacks, where they simply ask for peace and condemn the action.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:22pm
 I don't think Karazi is that way inclined though is he. It was he that made the comment.
 
Mind you, this makes interesting reading...
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:35pm
Quote Son of Abdul Ahad Karzai, half brother of the prominent drug trafficker and CIA contractor Ahmad Wali Karzai

Call me cynical, but it doesn't exactly look good for the Americans, with accusations they put him in power.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 6:44pm

Quote Call me cynical...

OK, you're cynical.  Wink

Quote ...but it doesn't exactly look good for the Americans, with accusations they put him in power.

I seem to recall an election.  It was certainly skewed but as fair as any in that part of the world with Karzai buying votes and the Taliban using violence to keep people from voting at all.  Possibly the two balanced one another out and the result reflected what the majority really wanted - or not.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 9:01pm
Hey, Karzai and I have the same birthday.  He's younger.  I'm better looking though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2011 at 10:53pm
Quote Remember we are talking about Jihad here, not just plain terrorism. Jihad is legitimate under (extreme?) Islam.
 
You think Jihad is a kind of terrorism?
 
It's interesting your comments seem to imply you have absolutely no knowledge of what is written in the article you just linked.
 
Did you read it before you decided to copy and paste the URL? Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 1:08am

Quote You think Jihad is a kind of terrorism?

Odai, most of us know that there are several levels and kinds of jihad, inluding the internal, personal struggle to be better.  Obviously the word has multiple meanings.

What we also understand reasonably well is that, at the other end of the spectrum, to quite a large number of Muslims in the world, jihad does indeed include acts of terrorism. There can be no denial that acts of terrorism are committed daily in the name of Islam.

Quite a number of Muslim clerics have called for jihad against the West, against America, against the infidels, against the crusaders and all manner of other targets.  The clerics issue fatwahs that make terrorism legitimate, indeed an obligation, for those who follow them.

We further understand that a great many more moderate Muslims, including what is probably the majority of the clerics, condemn such behavior and consider those who engage in it renegades.

Nonetheless, there are many, many Muslims who consider it their duty and their honor to engage in violent jihad against the West.  So yes, jihad is a kind of terrorism, or more correctly, terrorism is a kind of jihad for some of the Muslim faith.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 1:34am
John put it far better than I could have.

Quote Hey, Karzai and I have the same birthday. He's younger. I'm better looking though.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 6:56pm
Quote

Odai, most of us know that there are several levels and kinds of jihad, inluding the internal, personal struggle to be better. Obviously the word has multiple meanings.

What we also understand reasonably well is that, at the other end of the spectrum, to quite a large number of Muslims in the world, jihad does indeed include acts of terrorism. There can be no denial that acts of terrorism are committed daily in the name of Islam.

Quite a number of Muslim clerics have called for jihad against the West, against America, against the infidels, against the crusaders and all manner of other targets. The clerics issue fatwahs that make terrorism legitimate, indeed an obligation, for those who follow them.

We further understand that a great many more moderate Muslims, including what is probably the majority of the clerics, condemn such behavior and consider those who engage in it renegades.

Nonetheless, there are many, many Muslims who consider it their duty and their honor to engage in violent jihad against the West. So yes, jihad is a kind of terrorism, or more correctly, terrorism is a kind of jihad for some of the Muslim faith.

 
Firstly, Vulcan's comment doesn't correspond to what you said. I reckon the vast majority of people reading that comment would interpret it as something completely different.
 
Secondly, I don't reckon you've understood what Jihad is. Jihad is an Arabic word, meaning "struggle".
 
It does not have multiple meanings. That's the only one.
 
Quote What we also understand reasonably well is that, at the other end of the spectrum, to quite a large number of Muslims in the world, jihad does indeed include acts of terrorism. There can be no denial that acts of terrorism are committed daily in the name of Islam.
 
What "spectrum"?
 
This idea of "moderate" and "extremist" Islam is a concept that Western politicians have come up with and is ridiculous, the masses subscribe to it like lemmings. Unfortunately, it paints an innaccurate image of Islam. It serves simply to push the idealogy of those who have manufactured the concept.
 
There isn't an "extreme" version of Islam. Something is either in line with Islam, or it isn't. There isn't a way you can somehow bend the meaning of Islam a little bit to make your own "extreme" viewpoint more feasible. The only way you can accept certain acts that are known to be against Islam, as compliant with Islam, is if you have an incomplete knowledge of Islam.
 
The views of "extremists", as Westerners tend to put it, are clearly totally riddled with these kinds of inaccuracies, holes in religious knowledge etc. Ironically, in the exact same way the views of "Islamophobes" are.
 
Some violent methods are also considered Jihad. Does not make it wrong (or "extreme") in the slightest. Violence against non-combatants is not permissible in Islam. End of. Fighting those who wish to harm you on the other hand, is. And it is encouraged in Islam to do so, to protect yourself and those around you.
 
I bet the vast majority of "terrorism" you refer to are in fact military acts against Western military targets present in the lands of those who resent them.
 
So what you've called terrorism, other people wouldn't.
 
Polticians have taken something political, and made it religious.
 
It seems in the eyes of a lot of "Westerners", you can either be a Muslim pacifist or a Muslim terrorist/extremist.
 
In the context of this specific incident you're discussing, no doubt it's wrong to exploit a child in such a way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 7:12pm
There isn't an "extreme" version of Islam. Something is either in line with Islam, or it isn't.
 
Wasn't John referring to acts committed "in the name of" Islam. Those acts may not be in line with Islam, the perpetrators may not be regarded as true followers according to the proper definition.
 
There isn't a way you can somehow bend the meaning of Islam a little bit to make your own "extreme" viewpoint more feasible.
 
But the perpetrators of certain abhorrent acts do "bend the meaning of Islam" to justify their own extreme actions.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:24pm
Quote
Wasn't John referring to acts committed "in the name of" Islam. Those acts may not be in line with Islam, the perpetrators may not be regarded as true followers according to the proper definition.
 
Yeah, but he also refers to "extremist Islam" and that's what the part of my post you quoted was referring to.
 
Quote
But the perpetrators of certain abhorrent acts do "bend the meaning of Islam" to justify their own extreme actions.
 
You've misunderstood. Those who do so may think what they are doing is acceptable, but only because of holes in their understanding. In the end, what they do contradicts other parts of Islam.  
 
It's exactly the same as "Islamophobes" taking parts of the Quran out of context to suit their own agenda.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 10:35pm
Quote Firstly, Vulcan's comment doesn't correspond to what you said. I reckon the vast majority of people reading that comment would interpret it as something completely different.

How do you think I interpreted it?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 11:46pm

Quote VulcanB2 -> Remember we are talking about Jihad here, not just plain terrorism. Jihad is legitimate under (extreme?) Islam.

Odai -> Firstly, Vulcan's comment doesn't correspond to what you said. I reckon the vast majority of people reading that comment would interpret it as something completely different.

I don’t think they will.  I understood Vulcan’s comment as distinguishing between terrorist acts committed by Muslims for the sake of their religion and other acts of terrorism, e.g. Timothy McVeigh/Oklahoma City bombing, IRA, FARC, PETA, Basque separatists, drug cartels, anarchists, etc.  There are a lot of terrorists around but we’re talking about the extremist Muslim terrorists.
 

Quote allardjd -> What we also understand reasonably well is that, at the other end of the spectrum, to quite a large number of Muslims in the world, jihad does indeed include acts of terrorism. There can be no denial that acts of terrorism are committed daily in the name of Islam.

Odai ->What "spectrum"?

Odai -> Secondly, I don't reckon you've understood what Jihad is. Jihad is an Arabic word, meaning "struggle".
 
Odai -> It does not have multiple meanings. That's the only one.

This spectrum, Odai, these kinds of struggles, these multiple meanings – from the Wiki article that Vulcan linked…

”Muslims use the word in a religious context to refer to three types of struggles: an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, or the struggle to defend Islam…”

Do you reject the Wiki article, or were you wrong about there being different types of jihad?
 

Quote This idea of "moderate" and "extremist" Islam is a concept that Western politicians have come up with and is ridiculous, the masses subscribe to it like lemmings. Unfortunately, it paints an innaccurate image of Islam. It serves simply to push the idealogy of those who have manufactured the concept.
 
There isn't an "extreme" version of Islam. Something is either in line with Islam, or it isn't. There isn't a way you can somehow bend the meaning of Islam a little bit to make your own "extreme" viewpoint more feasible. The only way you can accept certain acts that are known to be against Islam, as compliant with Islam, is if you have an incomplete knowledge of Islam.
 
The views of "extremists", as Westerners tend to put it, are clearly totally riddled with these kinds of inaccuracies, holes in religious knowledge etc. Ironically, in the exact same way the views of "Islamophobes" are.

You paint a picture that there is only one true interpretation of Islam and that the rest of us should view those who do not adhere to it as not being Muslims at all.  Quite aside from the fact that that makes it pretty difficult for us to sort the wheat from the chaff, that doesn’t seem to be the way it works in the real world. 

To begin with, who have the right idea, the Shiites or the Sunnis?  By your words we should consider all who are not of the correct sect to be non-Muslim.  Help us out with that, Odai, - - - which is the true Islam, Shia or Sunni?

I guess that automatically eliminates about half – perhaps there aren’t as many Muslims in the world as we thought, since one sect or the other really aren’t Muslims at all.  What a concept!!!

I utterly reject your contention that they are not Muslims at all because they have a different view of it than you do.  That’s a cop-out by the moderates or those pretending to be moderate to somehow separate themselves from those who are violent, those who commit terrorism in the name of Islam.  The fact is, Islam has a rather large extreme element and an extremism problem.  It’s incumbent on the rest of you to get it straightened out if you wish to be respected and taken seriously when you claim that Islam is a peaceful religion. 

It just doesn’t wash.  We don’t believe you and we don’t trust you when you claim Islam is a peaceful religion because so many of its adherents behave otherwise. 

There appear to be at least tens of thousands of “extreme” Muslims in the world.  Judging from events, an order of magnitude or two more than that wouldn’t be particularly surprising if the true number could be known.  In my context, extreme Muslims are those who profess to be Muslim and who commit terror in the name of their faith and those who support and encourage them.  That’s my idea of what constitutes Muslim extremism.  It’s hardly a fabrication of politicians and media – it’s what’s going on in the world.

Quote Odai -> Some violent methods are also considered Jihad. Does not make it wrong (or "extreme") in the slightest. Violence against non-combatants is not permissible in Islam. End of. Fighting those who wish to harm you on the other hand, is. And it is encouraged in Islam to do so, to protect yourself and those around you.
 
I bet the vast majority of "terrorism" you refer to are in fact military acts against Western military targets present in the lands of those who resent them.

So what you've called terrorism, other people wouldn't.

Well, lets begin with a short list of attacks on civilians…

9/11 attacks in the US
The 7/7 attacks in the UK
The Barcelona subway bombings
The beheading of Daniel Pearl
The attempted Times Square mini-van bombing in New York, 2010
The 2008 Mumbai, India attack
The killings of UN office personnel in Afghanistan in April, 2011

 
All were carried out by Muslims on non-Muslim civilians.

I say that’s terrorism.  I say that’s extremist Muslim terrorism.

What do you say, Odai?

Quote Odai -> In the context of this specific incident you're discussing, no doubt it's wrong to exploit a child in such a way.

+ 1  - Actually, it’s wrong to exploit a child in ANY way.

Quote Wasn't John referring to acts committed "in the name of" Islam. Those acts may not be in line with Islam, the perpetrators may not be regarded as true followers according to the proper definition.

I was but I don’t accept that non-Muslims do things like that “in the name of Islam”.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and claims to be a duck there’s a very good chance that it’s a duck.  You saying it’s not a duck doesn’t make it a peacock; it makes you either naïve or deceitful.

Quote You've misunderstood. Those who do so may think what they are doing is acceptable, but only because of holes in their understanding. In the end, what they do contradicts other parts of Islam.

They are incited and recruited by Muslim clerics far and wide, some of whom are considered Muslim scholars.

The Egyptian Ayman al Zawahiri, for example, who is credited as being an Islamic scholar, is the de facto head of al Quaeda and has repeatedly called for attacks against Western civilians wherever they may be found. 

Anwar al Awlaki in Yemen is another.  Other Muslim clerics have been deported from the UK (and other Western countries) for fomenting terrorism, recruiting jihadists and supporting terrorist organizations.  We have one, Omar Abdel Rahman, rotting in prison after being convicted for his part in the unsuccessful 1993 attempt against the World Trade Center in New York. These are not isolated incidents.  Such people are relatively common.

 

Quote It's exactly the same as "Islamophobes" taking parts of the Quran out of context to suit their own agenda.

No, it’s not the same at all.  Accepting for the sake of argument that “Islamophobes” do that (and they probably do), they are not doing it “in the name of Islam” nor are they claiming to be Muslims.  It’s not remotely the same.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 4:54pm
I've got to say, you've said some pretty shocking things in that post (shocking, even compared to the rest of the rubbish you've posted on Islam).
 
Quote

This spectrum, Odai, these kinds of struggles, these multiple meanings – from the Wiki article that Vulcan linked…

”Muslims use the word in a religious context to refer to three types of struggles: an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, or the struggle to defend Islam…”

Do you reject the Wiki article, or were you wrong about there being different types of jihad?

I didn't say that, I said there aren't multiple meanings for Jihad. Jihad is struggle. Use an online Arabic translator if you don't believe me.
 
Quote To begin with, who have the right idea, the Shiites or the Sunnis? By your words we should consider all who are not of the correct sect to be non-Muslim. Help us out with that, Odai, - - - which is the true Islam, Shia or Sunni?
 
I did have a lengthy post typed out in response to this thread, but the forum cookies expired and I've lost it (again...). So I'm not gonna bother repeating myself, all I'll suggest is you look up the actual differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. There are no fundamental differences in religious beliefs/practices and you'll find (surprise, surprise...) that you could call most of the differences political. After all, the single most significant difference between the two groups is that of who should have been successor to the Prophet (pbuh).
 
 
Quote

I guess that automatically eliminates about half – perhaps there aren’t as many Muslims in the world as we thought, since one sect or the other really aren’t Muslims at all.

You're making no sense at all. There aren't any differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims that would be significant in this context...
 
And it's not half, it's more like 90/10.
 
Quote I utterly reject your contention that they are not Muslims at all because they have a different view of it than you do. That’s a cop-out by the moderates or those pretending to be moderate to somehow separate themselves from those who are violent, those who commit terrorism in the name of Islam.
 
Right... Someone doesn't follow Islam, means they're still Muslim just a little extreme. Fair enough, have it your way, just don't expect many people to share the same logic.
 
Quote In my context, extreme Muslims are those who profess to be Muslim and who commit terror in the name of their faith and those who support and encourage them. That’s my idea of what constitutes Muslim extremism. It’s hardly a fabrication of politicians and media – it’s what’s going on in the world.
 
The people you refer to as extremists are not Muslims because they have ignored many of the things commanded of them in Islam. They are not taking Islam "to the extreme". That doesn't make any sense.
 
Either way, it's totally irrelevant. They're in a tiny minority. I was just venting my annoyance at one of the most ridiculous concepts devised by Western politicans to push their agenda.
 
Quote

Well, lets begin with a short list of attacks on civilians…

9/11 attacks in the US
The 7/7 attacks in the UK
The Barcelona subway bombings
The beheading of Daniel Pearl
The attempted Times Square mini-van bombing in New York, 2010
The 2008 Mumbai, India attack
The killings of UN office personnel in Afghanistan in April, 2011


All were carried out by Muslims on non-Muslim civilians.

I say that’s terrorism. I say that’s extremist Muslim terrorism.

What do you say, Odai?

I say BS.
 
Sorry, but that's the worst argument I've ever seen.
 
How about we go through the extensive list of crimes commited by non-Muslims against Muslim innocents? Shall we discuss the millions of Muslims slaughtered at non-Muslim hands? Iraq? Palestine? Afghanistan? By your logic, that would then mean there is a fundamental issue with non-Muslim society that needs to be resolved, because the lot of you are a bunch of terrorists.
 
Jeez...
 
You can find "extremists" as you call them, in any group of society. Sorry mate, but that's how it is.  
 
If you truly believe there are more "Muslim extremists" than there are in other religions, then maybe you'd like to consider that it tends to be Muslim countries currently that are facing oppression? I'm sure we'll see an increase in Christian extremism if we ever see an invasion and occupation of some predominantly Christian country. It's just another risk factor to add to the list.
 
Quote The fact is, Islam has a rather large extreme element and an extremism problem. It’s incumbent on the rest of you to get it straightened out if you wish to be respected and taken seriously when you claim that Islam is a peaceful religion. 
 
No, it's not a fact. It's a downright delusion.
 
I sure hope you're going to take the responsibility of taking care of every American racist, and get the whole Islamophobic you have going on in that minority of society sorted out. You know, because it's incumbent on the rest of you to get it straightened out if you wish to be respected and taken seriously.
 
Quote There appear to be at least tens of thousands of “extreme” Muslims in the world.
 
Source? Sorry, but it's plainly obvious you've made a wild guess to reach that conclusion...
 
Quote Judging from events, an order of magnitude or two more than that wouldn’t be particularly surprising if the true number could be known.
 
...and that proves it. Thanks.
 
Tell you what. Let's assume your worst case scenario and say there are 1 million "extremist" Muslims in the world. That's less than 0.1%.
 
You're clearly an expert on these matters and know better than everyone else. So go ahead and enlighten us as to what fundamental issue there is with Islam that causes a tiny minority to go "rogue" but does not affect 99.99% of Muslims?
 
You don't reckon it's more likely the cause of the hate is the same kind of social and political problems that cause the racism you're exhibiting here? Maybe ignorance, lack of education on the topic? Is it a coincidence that these "extremists" tend to come from the poorest and most disadvantaged backgrounds? Or that the poorest regions here in the UK tend to have the biggest problems with racism?
 
So how about people set about fixing those issues, as opposed to trying to convince themselves Islam is the problem?
 
Sorry, but it's not Islam that has caused the issue. I know you'd have liked it to be so, but it just isn't.
 
Quote

The Egyptian Ayman al Zawahiri, for example, who is credited as being an Islamic scholar, is the de facto head of al Quaeda and has repeatedly called for attacks against Western civilians wherever they may be found.

Anwar al Awlaki in Yemen is another. Other Muslim clerics have been deported from the UK (and other Western countries) for fomenting terrorism, recruiting jihadists and supporting terrorist organizations. We have one, Omar Abdel Rahman, rotting in prison after being convicted for his part in the unsuccessful 1993 attempt against the World Trade Center in New York. These are not isolated incidents.

So you're referring to a small number of individuals as a significant pattern?
 
It's true that more than 1% of American adults is in prison right? So why aren't you more worried about that?
 
Quote Such people are relatively common.
 
Right... Again, a delusional conclusion because of your own distorted view of reality. This is backed up by the fact that the conclusions you come to make absolutely no sense whatsoever (like the idea there's obviously something fundamentally wrong with Islam based on the actions of a tiny minority), your clear lack of knowledge in Islam (don't take it the wrong way, I'm ignorant on a lot of things too, but I don't then go and pretend I'm an expert on said matters and spout great fountains of rubbish on them).
 
You've made these great big, bold claims (and it's good to put stuff out there to stimulate discussion) but have shown absolutely no evidence for it. The only evidence I see is evidence that you're talking in exactly the same way as every other typical Islamophobe out there.  
 
Quote No, it’s not the same at all. Accepting for the sake of argument that “Islamophobes” do that (and they probably do), they are not doing it “in the name of Islam” nor are they claiming to be Muslims. It’s not remotely the same.
 
Who cares whether they do it in the name of Islam or not? What difference does it make? They do just as much damage to society for the same reasons (mainly, ignorance). To be honest, I'd count you among them.
 
I was extremely disappointed when I read your post, I honestly thought you were a reasonable person. I never expected you to be one of those who painted all Muslims with the same brush based on the actions of a tiny minority. I guess you also want me to view all Americans as downright racists based on what I read here, ignoring every one of my other experiences with people from America...?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:22pm
I was extremely disappointed when I read your post, I honestly thought you were a reasonable person. I never expected you to be one of those who painted all Muslims with the same brush based on the actions of a tiny minority.
 
Err, pardon me for interrupting, but nowhere did John imply that. In fact he said...
 

Quote We further understand that a great many more moderate Muslims, including what is probably the majority of the clerics, condemn such behavior and consider those who engage in it renegades.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 8:37pm

I don't think John induced race in this disscussion either.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by MartinW MartinW wrote:

I was extremely disappointed when I read your post, I honestly thought you were a reasonable person. I never expected you to be one of those who painted all Muslims with the same brush based on the actions of a tiny minority.
 

Err, pardon me for interrupting, but nowhere did John imply that. In fact he said...

 

Quote We further understand that a great many more moderate Muslims, including what is probably the majority of the clerics, condemn such behavior and consider those who engage in it renegades.


 


This is Odai

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