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Religion may become extinct in nine nations!

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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

I don't know anyone who is "properly" religious. I know some people would identify as "Christian" but they don't go to Church or worship.

I was outspoken at school regarding RE - if you were a Jehovah's Witness you could be exempted from attending RE classes, but as a non-believer in any God, I had to attend and couldn't get out of it. Tongue-in-cheek I protested that it was discriminatory and was met with non-rebuttals and silence to my statement. It created an interesting dilemma for the Head Teacher to ponder.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
 
I would say there is definately an overwhelming bias in society toward favouring the religious. It can often be like walking on egg shells, but it doersn't work the other way round.
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Old Flapper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 11:01pm
Martin, you're a master at back-tracking if nothing else. You have on so many occasions made anti-religious statements over the years, you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith. Sorry to make you angry, but your words above were not very ambiguous, so all credit to you for changing your meaning in your later post.
I wonder if you would mind removing my account here as I'm long past enjoying this forum and I know I'm not valued here anyway.
Regarding the sales, despite wanting many ot the wonderful offerings here, I for one have not been able to bring myself to buy any Just Flight products for a long, long time because of this anti-religious vein that runs through the forums. I know I'm by no means alone (people talk), but until now I thought better of mentioning it and would certainly not encourage a boycot.
On the strength of this please would you delete my account as I've no wish to have any holding here and no desire to hear you trampling on anyone's beliefs again.
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 12:57am
Apologies for the bold type, the forum seems to be treating me to a glitch. Smile
 
 
Quote Martin, you're a master at back-tracking if nothing else.
 

It’s very sad that a longstanding and valued member of the forum should take such an attitude and deride those he’s known for so long. Those he absolutely knows do not hold such views. I am not “backtracking” I don’t backtrack! I give you my assurance that the comment was meant exactly as I defined it. I don’t make a habbit of lying!

 

“Perhaps the HUMAN RACE is growing up” is easy to interpret. But I suspect you have interpreted it how you wanted to interpret it. Overreacting to the last two words of my 9-word sentence, while simultaneously ignoring the more extreme comments made by other forum members. I guess you chose to single me out as your whipping boy.

 

It’s absolutely clear that I was addressing the “human race” as a whole, as a “species, not individual followers of a religion, if I hadn’t been, then I wouldn’t have used the term “human race”. It was obviously meant in regard to an “evolutionary process. Do you really believe I would be so unintelligent as to regard those with faith, including the many intellectuals out there that believe, as having immature, underdeveloped cognitive powers? Have I not demonstrated over the years that I am actually not thick?

 

I’ve discussed this very “evolutionary theory” with you before, and you didn’t have difficulty interpreting it then.
 
Quote You have on so many occasions made anti-religious statements over the years

Or more accurately, I have stated my own honest opinion. Just as you have stated your own opinion in regard to your beliefs.  And just as others on the forum have stated theirs. Do I tell you you are trashing my agnostic views, and react with melodrama?

Do you not remember the last conversation we had, it was in regard to your spiritualist beliefs. It was an friendly debate were we both hopefully leaned more about each others opinions. I found your opinions very interesting, as my father also held similar views.

Quote you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith

To be honest I find that suggestion somewhat ludicrous. Please show me the thread were I did such a thing!

Quote so all credit to you for changing your meaning in your later post.

Magic Man didn't interpret it that way so why did you decide to?

Quote I wonder if you would mind removing my account here as I'm long past enjoying this forum and I know I'm not valued here anyway.

You rarely contribute to the forum. It seems you have only turned up this time to  cast doubt on my character, overreact to 9 words, and attempt to apply your censorship to the forum. as for not valued, nothing could be further from the truth. I fear you are not quite yourself at the moment.

Quote I for one have not been able to bring myself to buy any Just Flight products for a long, long time because of this anti-religious vein that runs through the forums.

If the majority of the members of this forum are not believers then that is nothing to do with Just Flight at all. All you will achieve with your present attitude is to render religious discussion undebatable, a taboo subject, due to overreaction and desire for censorship. That would be very sad for the rest of us who are capable of debating profound topics with maturity and without melodrama.

Quote no desire to hear you trampling on anyone's beliefs again.

Then why did you click your mouse on the topic?

And what of the several other members of the forum that have expressed their beliefs in stronger terms than me. Or is it just me you wish to deride?

I remember a few years ago, when you reacted a similar way, unleashed a bitter diatribe at those with opposing religious views. You later apologised. I hope you see fit to do the same again. Because quite frankly, we are a great bunch on this forum, and none of us on  deserve to be defined in such a way. 

 

 

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johnsmithfsx View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnsmithfsx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 1:01am
Come now Old Flapper, I can understand your being offended by someone's remarks, but one forum member is hardly a reason to cease business with the company that owns the forum. I disagree with members sometimes, yet I still purchase Just Flight products. Why? The views of the forum's members does not necessarily reflect the views of the company. It has already been made clear by the staff that Mr. MartinW is not even a Just Flight employee.

Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

I do have to point out that Martin isn't a Just Flight employee...
Just Flight obviously do not endorse every opinion posted here.


This is a forum and there are bound to be different opinions and beliefs expressed here. My favourite method of dealing with something I disagree with is just ignoring it and moving on with my day. For example, I am not going to stop using YouTube because there is a video someone posted with nasty remarks that targets Christianity. If it becomes necessary, maybe you could just avoid the General Discussion forum and use this forum for aviation and flight simulation purposes only. I guess my main point in all this is I think you're blowing this a little out of proportion and the punishment does not fit the crime (if one wishes to call it that) so to speak.
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VulcanB2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 2:41am
Quote you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith

I don't remember Martin ever suggesting such a thing (or anyone else for that matter).

To me at least, what is written here on this forum is wholly separate from JustFlight as a company. Unless any of the the JF staff resorted to personal insults in the course of business, what they say here in this forum I consider to be their personal opinion, regardless of any internal JF company policy on such postings.

I second Martin's comments that this is a great forum. Whilst I don't hide form the fact some of my posts can be controversial, the topics we generally discuss here are none-the-less fun, entertaining, educational and enlightening. I've certainly never made close to 12000 posts on any other forum anywhere on the internet. If I get to 500 posts I'm posting a lot, somewhere.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 8:41am
John and Vulcan.... good replies. Smile
 
Vulcan frequently trashes my global warming beliefs, beliefs that I hold dear. [Not that I'd define it as trashing] And we frequently have lively debates, but at the end of the discussion I still regard Vulcan as a longstanding friend on the forum, I don't think any less of him.
 
Shame others don't have the same mindset as Vulcan and myself.
 
Quote It has already been made clear by the staff that Mr. MartinW is not even a Just Flight employee.
 
At no time would i wish for my views to be a reflection of the company hosting the forum.
 
If Just Flight think so and would like to take away my moderatorship that is fine by me.

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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:32am
Yep, agree. Just look at all the stuff we've said to Vulcan and he still comes back - we love him all the more for it.

Please, let's not fall out because of religion, it happens enough elsewhere, don't let it happen here.

To everyone, if your beliefs (religion or otherwise) are as strong to you as your defence of it suggests then surely it can easily cope with the minor japes and niggles some of us throw up from time to time.

I think Vulcan is really quite mad , and, as for Martin, well, where do you start... but I still happily engage in conversation with them and consider them good guys and good friends (don't get any ideas though Martin... )

Lots of other characters and good people here as well. Where's Odai?

We're all a happy bunch here and fairly different. That's what makes things good - a little microcosm of different ideas and beliefs, whatever areas those may cover.

We can all play together.
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:49am
don't get any ideas though Martin...
 
Heart
 
I think you're fat!
 
But strangely alluring. A bit like one of those vampires in the TV show True Blood.
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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:33am
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:41am
True Blood is gruesome but full of entertaining content... just like you. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 737Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 1:19pm
. . . .I am also offended by you Martin, I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn who makes it his absolute duty to spy on your sex life, spy on who you worship and pretty much everything else. How dare you suggest I am childish and stupid for believing in this! INFACT! Im not buying anything from JustFlight. . . no sir. . .not one thing, because Just Flight are people hating RAAACIISTS!!! But it sucks to be you, for not believing you're going to burn in hell! FOR ETERNITY! (despite being a perfectly well behaved/kind/generous human being who doesn't need to be nice just because he fears hell, or a book tells him to)


(the above was satire. . . .)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 8:39pm
Quote (the above was satire. . . .)

I couldn't tell!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 4:02pm
I congratulate this forum, its rare to find such discussion elsewhere! This is a huge subject, one which could be the basis for an entire forum.
 
I would add my twopenneth, a saying I personally like:-
 
  Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."
 
Smile
 
Each to his own!
 
Regards
Herky
 
You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 6:45pm
By the "Great Architect" I presume you mean the Laws of Physics.



Regards,
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:17pm
Who will admit to putting "Jedi" on the Census form?

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:52pm
Sith, surely...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:56pm
Cylon for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 10:11pm
I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.
 
I align with “the teleological argument”. The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

The universe could have been different from the way that it is in many ways. It could have had different laws of physics; it could have had a different arrangement of planets and stars; it could have begun with a more powerful or a weaker big bang.

(The link is suggested viewing, being as we are on the subject);-
 
The vast majority of these possible universes would not have allowed for the existence of life, so we are very fortunate indeed to have a universe that does. On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.
 
On the view that God exists, though, we can explain why the universe is the way that it is; it is because God created the universe with beings like us in mind. This argument, if it is successful, strongly suggests the existence of a Creator that takes an interest in humanity.
 
And Mr Vulcan.......Try?  Try Not!................Do, Or Do Not!!
( A good motto when at 20,000' dogfighting with an Archer inboundoh how I laughed )
 
 
Regards
Herky
You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:09am
Quote Cylon for me.


Yes! Just watched the whole series recently. What an ending!
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:30am

Quote   Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."

 

 

The famous “watchmaker” analogy! In reality… take a few simple factors, like procreation, mortality, and random mutation, and it’s very easy to see how great complexity can result from natural selection. There’s an incredibly powerful factor at work of course, and that's time, microscopic changes over billions of years is a very powerful force.

 

In addition, the watchmaker hypothesis is actually a very bad analogy. If you are going to use the watch analogy, then it would be a very defective watch, and a very unskilled watchmaker. Nature is far from perfect; in fact nature is replete with inefficiency, and error.

 

Quote I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.

 

I wouldn’t say that at all. The Theistic Anthropic Principle is a very long reach though.

 
The Anthropic Principle challenges some philosophers certainly, but given how so many scientists these days favor the many worlds interpretation, it’s not such a coincidence that our universe “seems to some” to be fine tuned.

 

Quote The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

 

And the counter point is that, as mentioned, complexity can very easily be generated from simple rules. Science can run a simple computer program, just a handful of instructions, and when run for a considerable time, incredible complexity results. This experiment has been replicated and verified.

 

Quote On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.

 

Actually there is! And the Anthropic Principle falls down on many counts. Science takes the “many worlds interpretation” very seriously these days. With the possibility of multiple universes, predicted by M-Theory, string theory, the Fecund Universes and others, the “apparent” fine tuning becomes irrelevant.

 

The other issue with the Anthropic Principle, is that it is an easy deus ex machina, that discourages the search for physical explanations.

 

It hasn’t actually been proven that there a way to change the physical constants, and until that’s done the argument is pretty much insubstantial.

So to sum up, the Theistic Anthropic Principle fails in lots of ways. It assumes that fine tuning is possible despite the fact it’s not proven. It uses faulty analogies. It doesn’t take probability densities into account, and therefore can’t demonstrate that our universe is unlikely. And it has been demonstrated that observed fine tuning actually increases the probability that our universe is natural.

Consider the Anthropic Principle as a philosophical exercise by all means, but that’s all it is, in reality it falls down on many counts.

 
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