Just Flight Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Just Chat > Just Chat - General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Religion may become extinct in nine nations!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Religion may become extinct in nine nations!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26721
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Religion may become extinct in nine nations!
    Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 11:26am
Who knows, perhaps the human race is growing up.
 
Quote

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

 
Back to Top
Old Flapper View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1062
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Flapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 10:51pm
Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?
Everyone's entitled to my opinions
Back to Top
Rich View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 8403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:28am
I do have to point out that Martin isn't a Just Flight employee...
Just Flight obviously do not endorse every opinion posted here.
Back to Top
737Chris View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Location: The Abyss
Status: Offline
Points: 2247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 737Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Old Flapper Old Flapper wrote:

Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?
 
Believing in the tooth fairy is considered childish, same with father christmas. . . . .whats the difference. . . .
Generic forum signature
Back to Top
Martyn View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar
Development Manager

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Huntingdon, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:22pm
Whilst we promote free-speech here, its worth taking note of our forum rules:

Quote In your use of these forums, you agree that you will not post any information which is ... insulting...


Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, whether they be Christian or atheist, and shouldn't feel that they are being belittled or insulted here.


My own experiences would firmly back up the findings of that report. Out of the 300+ students in my school year, I would say that probably less than 10 were 'actively religious' (go to church/temple, abide by the rules of their religion etc). I suspect that those ten were actively religious due to the influence/commands of their parents, as they tended to belong to the stricter religions such as Catholicism and Islam.

I think that most young people just don't find religion meaningful or relevant, with it being taught as a redundant 'thing of the past' at school. It was certainly taught as something belonging to a history book at my school, rather than something which could still have any meaning in modern society.

Religion, especially Christianity, has also disappeared from family life in the UK. My grandparents are all Christian but when I've asked them to explain why they believe what they do, they have always explained that they were given no choice but to attend Church (Sunday-school etc) and its more of a habit than a belief. I think that was probably a wide-spread occurrence. When my parents were growing up, my grandparents tried to carry on this tradition by encouraging them to attend Sunday-school but that was short-lived. There was no longer the social pressure to force children to attend Church, where-as less than a decade prior to that, families were often looked down upon if their children failed to attend. That was certainly true in the area that my parents grew up (north and west Wales).


Martyn
Just Flight Ltd
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by 737Chris 737Chris wrote:

Believing in the tooth fairy is considered childish, same with father christmas. . . . .whats the difference. . . .
 
Was going to post the exact same thing when I read this thread this morning - exact same two examples Smile.
 
Anyone still believing in the tooth fairy into their adult life would be regarded by many has having childish beliefs. To those of us with no religious faith then the existence of a god has as much proof and is based on as much fact as both of these childhood beliefs.

I don't wish to insult anyone as I know Martin didn't intend neither but anyone who has a faith has to understand that there are others who don't.

My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.
Back to Top
Martyn View Drop Down
Just Flight Staff
Just Flight Staff
Avatar
Development Manager

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Huntingdon, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 12:37pm
Quote My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.


It was changed to 'RE and Ethics' shortly after I left school. To be honest it was time that probably would have been better spent on subjects like Maths and Science. However, I do think its worth spending some time educating young people about what religions are present in the world, as they still have a great deal of influence on the world we live in. We were never force-fed religious beliefs, but encouraged to respect the various religions. I would say that's worth doing.

Tolerance should extend both ways, but I think both sides having their failings at times.

Martyn
Just Flight Ltd
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 1:14pm

Agree but, unfortunately, primary schools still seem to "teach" the love god/jesus, god made the world, adam & eve story etc.

His RE lesson in secondary school is more open than when I was in school but there still seems to be an overly faith based slant on things rather than just being informative about religions as a whole. They also only cover the "mainstream" religions without giving any nods to atheism, paganism, wicca etc. etc. =  presumably because these are seen as "bad".
 
Back to Top
papeg View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1434
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 2:29pm
Is it religious institutions you are upset with, or you just don't think God is real, or, if you will, some sort of super natural force?
 
I suspect that those ten were actively religious due to the influence/commands of their parents

Isn't that what parents are supposed to do, instill their values on their children.  Where else will children learn"  It's the same with school.  I suspect most, probably 99%, wouldn't attend unless they were forced by their parents, the government, and society.  It's what is best for the child and they usually cannot choose what is best for themselves so they need to be influenced/commanded
Greg
Back to Top
Magic Man View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: South Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 5336
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:01pm

There's a difference between parents teaching their children the difference between right and wrong and leading them into a belief system before the child has become old enough to question and make up their own mind with regards such matters.

No, I don't think god is real and I don't agree with primary schools (non religious based) still singing religious songs, "praying" to a god, being told to love and worship Jesus/god and being told that god created everything and everything else associated with creationism. Unfortuantely, in the UK, there isn't much choice - and these are non- religious schools supposedly.

Back to Top
papeg View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1434
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Magic Man Magic Man wrote:

No, I don't think god is real and I don't agree with primary schools (non religious based) still singing religious songs, "praying" to a god, being told to love and worship Jesus/god and being told that god created everything and everything else associated with creationism. Unfortuantely, in the UK, there isn't much choice - and these are non- religious schools supposedly.
 
I agree with you here, public school shouldn't enforce ANY religion and science should be taught on a factual basis, if a theory is taught, then it needs to be emphasised as a theory and it needs to be known that is may be subject to changed, that this is what the scientists believe based on current evidence.  Only problem I have with science class is when they teach a theory as a fact. 
 
Originally posted by Magic Man Magic Man wrote:

There's a difference between parents teaching their children the difference between right and wrong and leading them into a belief system before the child has become old enough to question and make up their own mind with regards such matters.

 
This is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs, whether its religious or just simple right vs wrong, a parent should also have the right to teach their children that God isn't real, that He doesn't exist.  A child can still make up their own minds when they become adults.  I've known many children who, after being brought up religiously, have willingly chose to reject the teaching they received as a child.  I also have know children who were raised as atheists and turned to religion after becomeing an adult.
Greg
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26721
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 3:45pm

To be honest, I was quite angry when I read that first response, must be my age.

 

I’m very disappointed  that the single sentence I typed should be interpreted in such a way.

 

Old Flapper is absolutely aware that I do not have such an opinion of those that follow a religion. He knows this because we’ve had numerous discussions in the past.

 

I also don't think it's fair to link my comment, and [misinterpreted] opinion, to just Flight sales, in an effort to add weight to the response and apply pressure.

 
Debate with fair tactics, not ploys designed to cause trouble for the other parties.

 

Quote Are you saying that religious people aren't grown up Martin? I can't see that sort of comment boosting Just Flight's sales to those with faith.. Still your gaff, your rules eh?

 

 

I didn't say "religious people" I said the "human race".

 
You need to read the sentence again and pay attention to the word “human race”. And then define “grown up” in regard to the stage of human evolution. Many intellectuals would regard the belief in a religion as a period in human evolution that we will one day evolve beyond. Carl Gutsav Jung believed that belief in god, and the desire to follow a religion was a pre-programmed psychological need, something we would one day evolve beyond. I would agree with that view…

 

However, despite the fact that myself, and many others, would agree with that view, I do not regard an “individual” that follows a religion as childish, immature, stupid, or behaving in a way that is inappropriate for their age.

 

So thats... grown up, as in the human race no longer having a psychological need for religion.
 
I hope that’s clear now.

 

Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26721
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Magic Magic wrote:

My son has to attend "religious education" as part of his government mandated schooling. In some ways I find that insulting - but have to accept the way things are or cause more trouble that it's worth in order to exclude him from the lesson.
 
I guess my daughter was lucky, religion was taught in an unbiased way, as it should be.
 
 I do think religion should be taught, the influence of religion on our world is very profound and kids should be aware of the various religions and the impact they have on society.
 
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26721
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 4:35pm

This is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs,

 

And what if those beliefs are wrong? And what if those beliefs are damaging?

 

What you describe, in regard to religion, is indoctrination. In terms of religion, parents should avoid influencing their children in such a way that they develop a life long bias toward a particular belief system

 

You don’t seem to be aware of how malleable a young Childs brain is. A young brain is not fully wired, the neurological connection are not complete. A parent who indoctrinates a child to believe in a particular concept, or religion, effectively wires that child’s brain in aparticular pattern.

 

 

A child can still make up their own minds when they become adults.

 

Evidence suggests the opposite. It’s actually hard for an individual to shake off the indoctrination that occurred in early childhood. Even intelligent individuals often find such a thing difficult. Our parents have a very, very profound effect on us.

 

We see the effects of religious indoctrination all over the world.

 

And it’s not just religious indoctrination; take a look at the tactics of dictators, ever heard of “The Hitler Youth”? It’s a common tactic to take control of children as early as possible.
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:05pm
I will say this: respect my point of view as much as you expect me to respect yours, after all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The fact that "dissenting voices" against religion must be silenced lest it is considered insulting/offensive shows just what is wrong with religion today.

Quote his is where I disagree, a parent needs to be free to instill their beliefs

If I decided to home-school my kids on grounds of "belief" (as some do), and I taught my kids that the Earth was flat, Hitler won WW2 and was a good guy and to hate Jews was the law, and that the Earth was the center of the Universe, then I'd be prosecuted for child abuse and would likely have my kids taken away. Therefore, telling a child to believe in some higher being without any evidence whatsoever should also fall into the same category. Both are false, and have no evidence to support them.

If a God really did exist, we would not have this situation of 50 religions and thousands of Gods of various kinds as there would be no doubt.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
papeg View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1434
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:08pm
And what if those beliefs are wrong?
 
Who's to say if my beliefs, or your for that matter, are wrong?  As far as damaging, well, you make a good point.
 
In terms of religion, parents should avoid influencing their children in such a way that they develop a life long bias toward a particular belief system
 
This would pertain to National Pride as well I assume? Atheism? Political Affiliation?
 
Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe and how best to raise our children.
Greg
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:25pm
Quote Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe and how best to raise our children.

This is my fundamental problem with religion. There is no free thought in religion - it is a fallacy to think there is.

The best, most recent example of this: vote in the Commons and Lords on abortion.

Now is a good time to note that we have the only Theocracy in the world (that is, heads of religion form a part of the democratic law making process - even the USA doesn't have this level of integration of the church in their political and law making processes).

So, on to my point. During the debate, the religious leaders kept making a big noise about "letting members vote with their conscience". What was meant by "conscience" in this context was this: vote as the church dictate they will vote. It meant nothing else.

The church is heavily anti-abortion and preach it is a sin etc. etc. etc. That is *NOT* letting people vote freely - that is telling them to vote the way religious leaders wanted them to vote. However, the religious leaders would never admit that they were *imposing* a doctrine on these people, and in effect manipulating the democratic process for religious gain.

IMHO all religious leaders should be removed from the political and judicial processes. Their "beliefs" are not representative of the people, and certainly aren't democratic.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
twright View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Location: London UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3303
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:26pm

At school, RE was a compulsory subject until A Level.  However, perhaps being the area I live in, the proportion of minority ethnic students at the school was very small. I now go to a university right in the centre of London, one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world, and i'd take a fair guess and say that roughly 80% of the students taking the course I would consider as belonging to minority ethnic groups - people from all cultures: Hindu, Sikh, Islam, Christian. It was quite a culture shock and a real eye-opener to the wider world!

Kind regards,
Tom
Back to Top
VulcanB2 View Drop Down
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 6:33pm
I don't know anyone who is "properly" religious. I know some people would identify as "Christian" but they don't go to Church or worship.

I was outspoken at school regarding RE - if you were a Jehovah's Witness you could be exempted from attending RE classes, but as a non-believer in any God, I had to attend and couldn't get out of it. Tongue-in-cheek I protested that it was discriminatory and was met with non-rebuttals and silence to my statement. It created an interesting dilemma for the Head Teacher to ponder.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
Back to Top
MartinW View Drop Down
Moderator in Command
Moderator in Command
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26721
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 7:15pm

 Who's to say if my beliefs, or your for that matter, are wrong? 

 

Which is precisely why the child should decide for themselves which religion or philosophy they wish to follow. Not be programmed by their parents to believe. And it obviously doesn't apply to basic behaviour and adherance to the law, we are talking about religious and philosophical views here.

 

Society does have a good idea what is right and wrong. If parents encouraged their children to break the law and commit violent acts, it would obviously be wrong. A prime example of why parents do not have a right to program a child as they see fit.

 

This would pertain to National Pride as well I assume? Atheism? Political Affiliation?

 

Yes it should. A child should decide for themselves if their country behaves in a manner that deserves their pride. And obviously a child should not be programmed to be an atheist or follow a particular political persuasion.

 

When I brought up my children, they were aware of my beliefs, but I didn't push them. When my children were young they both independently believed in god, and I was fine with that, it was their choice. As they grew up, without any encouragement from me, they both became atheists. Both my children are more atheist than I am. I would define myself as agnostic, simply because you can never prove one way or the other if god exists.

 
Either way, it's a good thing we do live in a free society where we can choose what we want to believe
 
But we don't live in a free society, when out parents force us to read religious texts, force us to attend church, and program us to follow their religious beliefs. Thats not freedom.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down