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Religion may become extinct in nine nations!

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Magic Man View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Herky Herky wrote:

The universe could have been different from the way that it is in many ways. It could have had different laws of physics; it could have had a different arrangement of planets and stars; it could have begun with a more powerful or a weaker big bang.
 
Irrelevant really since, whatever it was like or however it was arranged, if we were sitting here now reading this post or never existed, it wouldn't matter one bit.
 
Quote  
The vast majority of these possible universes would not have allowed for the existence of life, so we are very fortunate indeed to have a universe that does.
 
We evolved according to the conditions available. We may have evolved differently given different conditions.
If we hadn't evolved to the level required to ponder the argument or didn't exists at all then the argument is moot, therefore, is there an argument at all? Seems a bit Zen like to me...
 
We may also be a very insignificant part of the entire makeup of the universe. Making judgements on the existence of life according to certain conditions we believe to be true may be a little naive.
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:42am
Hmm... when we get to the end, I'll give it some more thought. But the first time I saw it, I thought the end lost it's way. I expected something better.
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Rich View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:36am
Really? I thought it was an excellent twist.
One of the few series I've seen that was consistently good throughout.

Apologies for going off topic Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:33am
Originally posted by RAS RAS wrote:

Quote Cylon for me.


Yes! Just watched the whole series recently. What an ending!
 
My son's back from uni, last night we got through three episodes on DVD. I've seen it before, my son hasn't.
 
Superb series, written by some of the Deep Space 9 writers. 
 
But the ending was poo I thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:30am

Quote   Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."

 

 

The famous “watchmaker” analogy! In reality… take a few simple factors, like procreation, mortality, and random mutation, and it’s very easy to see how great complexity can result from natural selection. There’s an incredibly powerful factor at work of course, and that's time, microscopic changes over billions of years is a very powerful force.

 

In addition, the watchmaker hypothesis is actually a very bad analogy. If you are going to use the watch analogy, then it would be a very defective watch, and a very unskilled watchmaker. Nature is far from perfect; in fact nature is replete with inefficiency, and error.

 

Quote I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.

 

I wouldn’t say that at all. The Theistic Anthropic Principle is a very long reach though.

 
The Anthropic Principle challenges some philosophers certainly, but given how so many scientists these days favor the many worlds interpretation, it’s not such a coincidence that our universe “seems to some” to be fine tuned.

 

Quote The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

 

And the counter point is that, as mentioned, complexity can very easily be generated from simple rules. Science can run a simple computer program, just a handful of instructions, and when run for a considerable time, incredible complexity results. This experiment has been replicated and verified.

 

Quote On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.

 

Actually there is! And the Anthropic Principle falls down on many counts. Science takes the “many worlds interpretation” very seriously these days. With the possibility of multiple universes, predicted by M-Theory, string theory, the Fecund Universes and others, the “apparent” fine tuning becomes irrelevant.

 

The other issue with the Anthropic Principle, is that it is an easy deus ex machina, that discourages the search for physical explanations.

 

It hasn’t actually been proven that there a way to change the physical constants, and until that’s done the argument is pretty much insubstantial.

So to sum up, the Theistic Anthropic Principle fails in lots of ways. It assumes that fine tuning is possible despite the fact it’s not proven. It uses faulty analogies. It doesn’t take probability densities into account, and therefore can’t demonstrate that our universe is unlikely. And it has been demonstrated that observed fine tuning actually increases the probability that our universe is natural.

Consider the Anthropic Principle as a philosophical exercise by all means, but that’s all it is, in reality it falls down on many counts.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2011 at 9:09am
Quote Cylon for me.


Yes! Just watched the whole series recently. What an ending!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 10:11pm
I have recently read The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking. Although the magnificently written book will test most people, in many areas, one premise, that Physics is the creator is a long reach.
 
I align with “the teleological argument”. The argument from design seeks to prove the existence of God from the fact that the universe is ordered.

The universe could have been different from the way that it is in many ways. It could have had different laws of physics; it could have had a different arrangement of planets and stars; it could have begun with a more powerful or a weaker big bang.

(The link is suggested viewing, being as we are on the subject);-
 
The vast majority of these possible universes would not have allowed for the existence of life, so we are very fortunate indeed to have a universe that does. On an atheistic world-view, there is no way to explain this good fortune; the atheist must put this down to chance.
 
On the view that God exists, though, we can explain why the universe is the way that it is; it is because God created the universe with beings like us in mind. This argument, if it is successful, strongly suggests the existence of a Creator that takes an interest in humanity.
 
And Mr Vulcan.......Try?  Try Not!................Do, Or Do Not!!
( A good motto when at 20,000' dogfighting with an Archer inboundoh how I laughed )
 
 
Regards
Herky
You Tube at HERKY231 or David Herky

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:56pm
Cylon for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:52pm
Sith, surely...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 9:17pm
Who will admit to putting "Jedi" on the Census form?

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 6:45pm
By the "Great Architect" I presume you mean the Laws of Physics.



Regards,
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 4:02pm
I congratulate this forum, its rare to find such discussion elsewhere! This is a huge subject, one which could be the basis for an entire forum.
 
I would add my twopenneth, a saying I personally like:-
 
  Voltaire said: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."
 
Smile
 
Each to his own!
 
Regards
Herky
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 8:39pm
Quote (the above was satire. . . .)

I couldn't tell!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 737Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 1:19pm
. . . .I am also offended by you Martin, I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn who makes it his absolute duty to spy on your sex life, spy on who you worship and pretty much everything else. How dare you suggest I am childish and stupid for believing in this! INFACT! Im not buying anything from JustFlight. . . no sir. . .not one thing, because Just Flight are people hating RAAACIISTS!!! But it sucks to be you, for not believing you're going to burn in hell! FOR ETERNITY! (despite being a perfectly well behaved/kind/generous human being who doesn't need to be nice just because he fears hell, or a book tells him to)


(the above was satire. . . .)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:41am
True Blood is gruesome but full of entertaining content... just like you. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:49am
don't get any ideas though Martin...
 
Heart
 
I think you're fat!
 
But strangely alluring. A bit like one of those vampires in the TV show True Blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:32am
Yep, agree. Just look at all the stuff we've said to Vulcan and he still comes back - we love him all the more for it.

Please, let's not fall out because of religion, it happens enough elsewhere, don't let it happen here.

To everyone, if your beliefs (religion or otherwise) are as strong to you as your defence of it suggests then surely it can easily cope with the minor japes and niggles some of us throw up from time to time.

I think Vulcan is really quite mad , and, as for Martin, well, where do you start... but I still happily engage in conversation with them and consider them good guys and good friends (don't get any ideas though Martin... )

Lots of other characters and good people here as well. Where's Odai?

We're all a happy bunch here and fairly different. That's what makes things good - a little microcosm of different ideas and beliefs, whatever areas those may cover.

We can all play together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 8:41am
John and Vulcan.... good replies. Smile
 
Vulcan frequently trashes my global warming beliefs, beliefs that I hold dear. [Not that I'd define it as trashing] And we frequently have lively debates, but at the end of the discussion I still regard Vulcan as a longstanding friend on the forum, I don't think any less of him.
 
Shame others don't have the same mindset as Vulcan and myself.
 
Quote It has already been made clear by the staff that Mr. MartinW is not even a Just Flight employee.
 
At no time would i wish for my views to be a reflection of the company hosting the forum.
 
If Just Flight think so and would like to take away my moderatorship that is fine by me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 2:41am
Quote you even once expressed a desire to help me rid myself of my faith

I don't remember Martin ever suggesting such a thing (or anyone else for that matter).

To me at least, what is written here on this forum is wholly separate from JustFlight as a company. Unless any of the the JF staff resorted to personal insults in the course of business, what they say here in this forum I consider to be their personal opinion, regardless of any internal JF company policy on such postings.

I second Martin's comments that this is a great forum. Whilst I don't hide form the fact some of my posts can be controversial, the topics we generally discuss here are none-the-less fun, entertaining, educational and enlightening. I've certainly never made close to 12000 posts on any other forum anywhere on the internet. If I get to 500 posts I'm posting a lot, somewhere.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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