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BIG Nuclear Trouble - All Reactors Exploded

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Magic Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 5:15pm
Is there a reason they decided to build these two nuclear stations right on the east coast of one of the most active quake areas in the world?

Couldn't they have kept them in the west which seems a lot quieter looking at the quake maps and protected from tsunamis?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 5:31pm
That area in the north east has the lowest population density, hence why they're there. They cant be built in land as the terrain is quite mountainous. Although there are several nuclear plants on the west coast also.

When you have a small island, big mountains, large population, and limited natural resources, nuclear power is about your only option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 5:35pm

Quote Is there a reason they decided to build these two nuclear stations right on the east coast of one of the most active quake areas in the world?

Couldn't they have kept them in the west which seems a lot quieter looking at the quake maps and protected from tsunamis?

There are 50+ nuclear units in Japan, distributed across about 20 separate sites.  About half of those sites are on their west coast. 

It's desirable to have power generation near where the consumption is for all kinds of reasons.  Siting of new generating facilities, whether nuclear or not, is a balancing act of many factors; seismic vulnerability is only one item on a long list.

By the way, as far as I know, the tsunami was not an issue for this plant.  It was the earthquake itself that caused the problem, not inundation.

John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 5:38pm

Quote They cant be built in land as the terrain is quite mountainous.

Power plants also require a heat sink, so copious quantities of water are required.  Siting near coastlines or major rivers simplifies that immensely.

 

John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 5:51pm
According to news agencies in Japan, the cooling system at the no 2 plant has also failed: http://bit.ly/gxYpda
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 6:27pm
More info coming from TEPCO

Quote
[Nuclear Power Station]
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station:
Units 1 to 3: shutdown due to earthquake
Units 4 to 6: outage due to regular inspection
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local
residents within 20km radius of the site periphery.
* The value of radioactive material (iodine, etc) is increasing according
to the monitoring car at the site (outside of the site). One of the
monitoring posts is also indicating higher than normal level.
* Since the amount of radiation at the boundary of the site exceeds the
limits, we decide at 4:17PM and we have reported and/or noticed the
government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of the Article 15 of
the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5PM.
* In addition, a vertical earthquake hit the site and big explosion has
happened near the Unit 1 and smoke breaks out around 3:36PM.
Our two employees and two cooperation workers who had been working for
the foundation of safety are suffered and they are all sent to the
hospital.
* We started injection of sea water into the reactor core of Unit 1 at
8:20pm and then boric acid subsequently.
* We continue endeavoring to secure the safety that all we can do and
monitoring the periphery.

Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station:
Units 1 to 4: shutdown due to earthquake
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local
residents within 10km radius of the periphery.
* At present, we have decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce
the pressure of the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air
containing radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety.
These measures are considered to be implemented in Units 1, 2 and 3 and
accordingly, we have reported and/or noticed the government agencies
concerned.
* Unit 3 has been stopped and being "nuclear reactor cooling hot stop" at
12:15PM.
* The operator trapped in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack
was transferred to the ground at 5:13PM and confirmed the death at 5:17PM.


From http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031231-e.html

So, cooling efforts underway with sea water and boric acid on the reactor which suffered the explosion, and venting to reduce pressure in the Daini plant - plus a dead worker in the exhaust stack!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 6:32pm
Cheers guys, didn't know they had that many.

Not looking good at the moment though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 7:40pm

The whole China Syndrome thing about the core melting through the bottom of the RX vessel and dropping to the floor as a molten blob is the stuff of Hollywood.  That's not very likely.

The BBC must have got that wrong then. Richard Black must have been watching a rerun of the China syndrome.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12723092

By the way, as far as I know, the tsunami was not an issue for this plant.  It was the earthquake itself that caused the problem, not inundation.

It was the tsunami that caused the diesel backup generators to fail, so an issue in that sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 7:53pm

Quote It was the tsunami that caused the diesel backup generators to fail, so an issue in that sense.

Had not seen that.  Source?

John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 8:10pm

Quote The BBC must have got that wrong then. Richard Black must have been watching a rerun of the China syndrome.

Yes, several things wrong in that article, pricipally half-truths that don't tell the whole story.  The most obvious error is the diagram, which shows the turbines, generator, condenser and feed pump inside the "containment chamber".  'Tain't so, and was clearly done by someone with a very superficial understanding of the workings.

The article also neglects the presence and role of boron in keeping the core sub-critical.  Sufficient boron can shut the reactor down entirely, without the use of control rods at all.  Nuclear safety systems provide exactly that capability.  At my plant (a pressurized water reactor, not a BWR) that's how we started up - pulled the rods out with high boron concentration and then diluted to critical.  The rods are quick-acting but the boron does the same thing, i.e. captures neutrons before they can fission another uranium nucleus.

 

John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 9:35pm
Quote Richard Black must have been watching a rerun of the China syndrome.

He is pro MMGW. Hardly good for his credibility.

Quote The most obvious error is the diagram, which shows the turbines, generator, condenser and feed pump inside the "containment chamber". 'Tain't so, and was clearly done by someone with a very superficial understanding of the workings.

Everywhere I read, it is a single loop design? i.e. the primary cooling loop also powers the turbines.

http://www.nucleartourist.com/type/bwr.htm

May find this interesting, too. Photos inside a plant.

http://www.nucleartourist.com/areas/bwr-in1.htm

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:00pm

Quote Everywhere I read, it is a single loop design? i.e. the primary cooling loop also powers the turbines.

That's correct, but the turbine-generator, main condenser and feed pumps are not located inside the containment as shown.

 

John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:20pm
Damn - now they are reporting the second reactor has lost its emergency cooling.    They are evacuating 170,000 people.

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Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by allardjd allardjd wrote:

Quote Everywhere I read, it is a single loop design? i.e. the primary cooling loop also powers the turbines.


That's correct, but the turbine-generator, main condenser and feed pumps are not located inside the containment as shown.


 


I see - thanks for the clarification! I thought it was odd for it to be.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:22pm
He is pro MMGW. Hardly good for his credibility.
 
So are Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku, and most of the Brainy individuals on the planet! I'm mean they're hardly credible are they?
 
Eat my shorts conspiracy theorist, this threads not about one of your CT fetishes... yet! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:24pm
Quote this threads not about one of your CT fetishes.

Stop derailing the thread.

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Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:26pm
I was asking you not to. Wink
 
Me personally though, I'm a moderator, I can derail what I like. Power hungry maniac that I am.
 
Listen, if I have to, Ill strap you to the wing of a Cessna, like we mentioned the other day.
 
I will you know? And drop you over Libya.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:34pm
BWRs also have multiple Recirculation loops.  They are large pumps that draw water through the fuel region and pump it back into the RX vessel at a different point.  There are no heat exchangers in those loops.  Those play a role in RX power control too when the RX is critical.  Those loops are entirely within the containment.
John Allard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2011 at 10:34pm
Apparently the Japanese nuclear safety agency are saying up to 160 people may have been exposed to radiation. They don't say to what degree though.
 
It's worth remembering, that in addition to the crisis at the plant, they are also having to deal with repeated after shocks up to magnitude 6.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 1:16am
160 was reported on the BBC News about 90 minutes to 2 hours ago.

An update: the measurements of 1000 times background radiation in the control room was *PRIOR* to the explosion. Source of the radiation is unknown at this time, and no reports are talking about it now. Is this the source of 160 people being exposed to high doses of radiation?

There are unconfirmed reports now of a fire at a 3rd reactor.

Here is an interesting drawing, showing the primary containment.



Best regards,
Vulcan.
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