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Students face fees of up to £9,000

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roachy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 11:46am
When did I complain about subsidies? All I'm saying is that it should be subsidised, which contradicts the rise in tuition fees.
 
In almost all cases apprenticeships are for people of trades - whether this be accountancy, electrician or builder. But they're not primarily academic, meaning people with them will have different career choices: you can't become a teacher through an apprentiecehip, and you can't become gas fitter through a degree - hence they aren't necessarily suitable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scampy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:37pm
Apprentiships are not just for manual workers. My education is a a building services engineer(design) and i have a Msc in building services engineering. I started in an apprentiship working every day and attending college then university once a week for 6 years paid for by my employer. If you came straight out of university with a masters or just a Bsc to work in this industry you would not get a job, and if you did you would be on the same money as if you started from school with no responsibility. Apprentiships are not just for manual workers they are a good way to improve your higher education find a job and earn money at the same time.

Who says you cant be a teacher ? if you have the correct qualifications theres nothing to stop you, and theres nothing to stop a teacher working as a gas fitter (with the correct qualifications). Just because you have chosen to study over a longer period, and not be a full time student is no reason to be treated like a leper. Or is it some kind of elitism 'ive come from university and im special' people who think like that will get the shock of their lives when they have to enter the workplace.
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roachy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:59pm
It's simple - you can't become a fully fledged teacher through an apprenticeship. To teach in the UK you must have a degree. There's no arguing with it - its a government requirement. I'm not putting a spin on this or saying you can't get anywhere, I'm just stating a fact.
 
Similarly, you can't go to university and train to become a gas fitter. The qualifications you need are only done through an apprenticeship.
 
When did I ever sound elitist?
 
Also, when did I say apprenticeships are for manual workers. I said for people of trades - there's a big difference.
 
My argument has never been that full time students are better - I was arguing that anyone wanting to do something academically worthwhile should have the chance to become a full-time student, if they wish to. With £9,000 fees this wouldn't be the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scampy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by roachy roachy wrote:



It's simple - you can't become a fully fledged teacher through an apprenticeship. To teach in the UK you must have a degree. There's no arguing with it - its a government requirement.[QUOTE]

I can give you many examples of professional people who have worked their way through an apprentiship and now have full degrees and higher qualifications. I personally have a Bsc and a masters degree that i studied for while employed as an apprentice. You cant do a degree if you are an apprentice?. Also as it stands i am a teacher albeit not in the UK. If i wish to work in the UK i will take a PGCE or the modern equivalent and become a teacher in the UK. Coming from a background of an apprentiship will not stop or hinder me and i will not be looked down on by characters who think i am lower than them because i didnt study full time.(Not saying you are looking down on me )
Apprentiships are not just for tradesmen/manual workers/artisans they are for people who want to get usable work experience while studying for a qualification what ever the qualification.

[QUOTE]When did I ever sound elitist?
 
Also, when did I say apprenticeships are for manual workers. I said for people of trades - there's a big difference.
 
My argument has never been that full time students are better - I was arguing that anyone wanting to do something academically worthwhile should have the chance to become a full-time student,



I wasnt actually saying you personally were elitist but if you think the only way to do something ' academically worthwhile ' is to study at university full time then i think you just showed elitism in its finery.

Theres not a big difference between tradesmen, artisans and manual workers. you work with your hands with tools you are a manual worker. If you are time served manual worker you are a tradesman.

The £9000 fees will be covered by a loan, every person with a place at uni can get that loan so it doesnt stop people from going to uni, its only when you have to pay it back in later life does it become a problem. And in todays society people having huge loans is the norm. If you pay it back correctly i can see it would be good for your credit rating too.




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roachy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by scampy scampy wrote:

If you pay it back correctly i can see it would be good for your credit rating too.
 
Student loans aren't part of a person's credit file because they are automatically taken out of your income - you can't choose not to pay them back.
I used to work for a finance company, so I know this is the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by scampy scampy wrote:

I wasnt actually saying you personally were elitist but if you think the only way to do something ' academically worthwhile ' is to study at university full time then i think you just showed elitism in its finery.
 
I never said anything about university being the only way to do something academically worthwhile, in fact I never even implied it. What I said was that anyone who does want to do something academically worthwhile should have the opportunity to go to university {because this is one way of doing something academically worthwhile}.
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roachy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by scampy scampy wrote:

I can give you many examples of professional people who have worked their way through an apprentiship and now have full degrees and higher qualifications. I personally have a Bsc and a masters degree that i studied for while employed as an apprentice. You cant do a degree if you are an apprentice?
 
But you still went to university, did you not? What I meant was that you can't do an apprenticeship that leads onto teaching - the only way you can become a teacher is if you've studied for a degree (which in your case would be regardless of the apprentice side of your education).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by scampy scampy wrote:

Also as it stands i am a teacher albeit not in the UK. If i wish to work in the UK i will take a PGCE or the modern equivalent and become a teacher in the UK. Coming from a background of an apprentiship will not stop or hinder me and i will not be looked down on by characters who think i am lower than them because i didnt study full time.(Not saying you are looking down on me )

I'd never mentioned that apprenticeships were bad, I've just been saying all along that they're a means to a different end. In your case, as you said, you have a degree (more than I have), which would of course be considered regardless of the way you got it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:04pm
Zenith:
Quote Contrary to popular opinion, Uni is not an entitlement, and should not be treated as such.

When it comes to education, it should be free to all regardless. If the people are not educated, progress can't be made. It suits the politicians however - they want obedient sheep to follow them unquestionably, and an uneducated population is easier to control (if you want proof look at history).

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 11:14am
When it comes to education, it should be free to all regardless.
 
Idealistic, but I agree Pointy.
 
As for the rest... It may have applied to Hitler's fascist dictatorship, but to tar a democratically elected government with the same brush, is a bit bizarre.
 
The current governments policy in regard to education is flawed,  but i think we can be safe in the knowledge that they actually aren't attempting to render the population of the UK uneducated, so they can turn us into automatons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roachy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by VulcanB2 VulcanB2 wrote:

It suits the politicians however
 
I don't quite agree with that point, although it obviously suits the politicians to dump on the most vulnerable and less educated, because they don't have the resources or ability to challenge it.
The way I see it, this government needed to save money and have tried to do it the easy way - by keeping the rich rich, and in effect putting a tax on success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 4:32pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11829102
 

There were 3,000 marchers in Manchester and similar numbers in Liverpool and Brighton and an estimated 2,000 at a protest in Bristol.

Clegg says... he will defend the governments policy despite the fact it's not the one he campaigned for. And urges students to call of the marches.
 
I say... get lost Clegg! Wink
 
 
Police lines hold back student tuition fee protesters
 
Quote

Police are blocking in thousands of student protesters in central London, after a wave of protests against higher tuition fees and university cuts.

Two police officers were injured as police held back demonstrators trying to break through their lines.

A police van was attacked, fires started and barricades thrown during clashes in Whitehall.

There have been occupations at many universities, including Oxford University's Bodleian Library.

The scene in Whitehall is now described as being much calmer, as the remaining demonstrators are contained by police.

There have been three arrests and six marchers are believed to have been injured.

The Prime Minister's spokesman said: "People have a right to engage in lawful and peaceful protest, but there is no place for violence or intimidation".

Occupations

Protesters in London had planned to demonstrate outside the Liberal Democrat headquarters - with students accusing the party's leaders of planning to break their signed pledge that they would vote against higher tuition fees.

Speaking on BBC Radio 2, Mr Clegg said: "I hate in politics, as in life, to make promises that you then find you can't keep... We made a promise we can't deliver - we didn't win the election outright and there are compromises in coalition."

Pupils%20protect%20vandalised%20police%20van Pupils from a London school protected a police van that had been attacked. They told vandals to withdraw.

Students have staged occupations at universities including Royal Holloway, Plymouth, Warwick, Birmingham, London South Bank, UCL, Essex and UWE Bristol.

Marches, walkouts and protest events are also taking place at universities and colleges across the country.

There were 3,000 marchers in Manchester and similar numbers in Liverpool and Brighton and an estimated 2,000 at a protest in Bristol.

School pupils have walked out of lessons in Winchester, Cambridge, Leeds and London.

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