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"Airliner would have survived xmas day bomb"

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allardjd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 6:14am

You guys appear to be engaged in re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

None of this matters. The test was a publicity stunt.  There was no practical reason to perform it, other than to produce a video product to titillate techies, garner ratings and to sell copies and/or advertising time.
 
Regardless of how well or poorly the test was constructed, the results are without value.  Whether or not that particular bomb would have brought down that particular aircraft at that particular point in its flight has no practical relevance or usefulness to anyone.

Preventing terrorist bombs from getting aboard aircraft is the issue.  Understanding with precision the yield of the required bomb aids only future homicidal terroists.

John Allard
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Odai[QUOTE Odai[QUOTE wrote:

No, I understood your reasoning. I just think it's rubbish. Wink
 
 
 

No need for ''mathematical proof'' at all. I think you know I mentioned this as a possibility, a suggestion.  Smile 
 
You also know containment is very relevant, precisely why you agreed that Vulcan's open door premise was valid. Wink Because the reduction in pressure would decrease the likelihood of a skin rupture.

 

First you agree that Vulcan  is right, and the open door premise reduces the chance of a skin rupture, due to a reduction in containment.

 

So containment is relevant.

 

And now you tell us that the size of the aircraft, the degree of containment, the volume of air within the vessel available for a shock wave to dissipate is irrelevant.

 
We can't have it both ways. Smile
 
And besides - the width of the aircraft is quite small. So there isn't much air between the explosive and the wall.

 

So it's the effect of the shock front that's relevant now then is it? In which case the fact that the door is open, is irrelevant. And Vulcan wrong.

 
Actually, only a small percentage of the blast in your ''close to the wall'' example would be relevant. Precisely why ''shaped charges'' are designed to focus more of the energy toward a structure.

 

As I said before...
 
Quote The energy of a shock wave dissipates quickly with distance, Also, the accompanying expansion wave approaches and eventually merges with the shock wave, partially cancelling it out.
 
And that includes a large volume within an airliner.
 
By the way...
 
If this degenerates into another meenigless argumant that benefits no one,  I will delete all posts and allow the debate to continue, minus the pointless arguments. Just a warning. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 11:13am
Quote You guys appear to be engaged in re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
Did you know that the Titanic’s excess deck chairs were stored in the superfluous 4th chimney stack?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 12:12pm
I did not know that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 12:42pm

In that case it goes to show that this post was both meaningful and beneficial Wink

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Slopey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 12:50pm
My life has been enriched. I am off to entertain my colleagues with my new found knowledge.
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 12:57pm
Meaningful and beneficial, interesting, of interest, to those that took part... apart from the last four posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 1:24pm
Whoops! Gotta get the post count up somehow!

Anyway, back on topic....

Did they publish any documentation about the test in the public domain, or is it purely that video? These guys love to write stuff up, so if it's pukka there's likely a report on it somewhere?
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 4:06pm
The claim...
 
Quote Dr John Wyatt, an international terrorism and explosives adviser to the UN, replicated the conditions on board the Detroit flight on a decommissioned Boeing 747
 
Think it's clear in this thread now, despite the Mickey taking directed at Vulcan, that it certainly wasn't ''replicated''  to a high degree. Seems he's an explosives adviser, don't now what his doctorate's in.
 
Done for...
 
Quote The controlled experiment was carried out for the BBC Two documentary How safe are our Skies? Detroit Flight 253.
 
It was for a documentary on the BBC, so I'm thinking hardly a top notch, simulated to perfection experiment.
 
My apologies to Vulcan for taking the Mickey.
 
And full marks to John for showing us the light.
 
Watching it on iPlayer now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 4:13pm
Ahh, if it's a documentary team with an "expert" then that's a million miles different from the NTSB.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 4:21pm
Quote No need for ''mathematical proof'' at all. I think you know I mentioned this as a possibility, a suggestion.  Smile 
 
You know very well that possibilities are useless, there are an infinite number of "possibilities". How can you even begin to attempt a physics problem (which is what this is) without using the maths to determine what is going to happen?
 
Unless you have some bizarre new way to do physics that is completely unheard of and inaccessible to the rest of us? Wink Guessing doesn't count.
 
Quote

First you agree that Vulcan  is right, and the open door premise reduces the chance of a skin rupture, due to a reduction in containment.

 
No...? What is relevant is that the fuselage of an aircraft flying at 10,000 metres is already going to be under a hell of a lot more strain (pressure inside much bigger than outside) than that of an aircraft sitting on the tarmac.
 
And, like I said, a real bomber isn't going to be sitting on his own, partitioned from the rest of the cabin in a container of his own. So who cares? Wink
 
There's little you can say to argue about the actual problem of what exactly would happen if a bomb went off in a pressurised airliner, versus what happened in the video - without the maths. If this is going to descend into the realms of guesswork then I'm no longer interested. Smile 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 4:46pm
Odai, enough is enough.
 
Read your comment again. Your comment that the volume within which an explosion occurs is irrelevant. No need for convoluted arguments or cherry picking another's comments out of context. Or impressions of an annelid with an over active slime gland.
 
I think most are aware of the role that volume plays in an explosion, and how a shock front dissipates with distance and volume.
 
I will delete any more posts that side track this thread.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 5:03pm
Okay, after watching it on iPlayer [as Ras said earlier] later in the program, they explain that the aircrafts altitude was low enough so that the absence of a door was not a factor. The pressure differential was not relevant.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slopey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 5:10pm
What height were they at when he tried to set it off by the way?
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MartinW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MartinW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 5:15pm
10,000 and descending Slopey.
 
Pressurized to 8000 aren't they 747's?
 
They said the small difference wasn't enough to affect the outcome of the explosion.
 
Basically, the investigators decided it was a small explosive in a large space, with minimal pressure differential, so whether the doors were shut or not irrelevant.
 
They had pressure sensors throughout the aircraft to detect how far the shock wave traveled inside the aircraft.
 
So, sorry Vulcan, no apologies to you after all. Big%20smile The experts did know what they were doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 8:05pm
Quote In any event, the BVD Bomb was a dud and succeeded only in inflicting on the jihadist a little of what he richly deserved - instead of the expected dozens of virgins he got toasted testicles. Good deal - sometimes things just work out! He may even qualify for a Darwin Award by having removed himself from the gene pool - I hope so.



Very nicely put!!

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VulcanB2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 8:13pm
At 10,000 ft with a cabin altitude of 8,000 ft the cabin diff. pressure will be around 1.5 to 2.0 psi.

At max cruise altitude (41,000 ft) differential pressure is 8 psi.

To give you an idea - 0.3 psi is sufficient to stop you from opening the cockpit window or the cabin door.

Best regards,
Vulcan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2010 at 2:14am
Quote In any event, the BVD Bomb was a dud and succeeded only in inflicting on the jihadist a little of what he richly deserved
 
Are you actually aware of what Jihad is?
 
Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allardjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2010 at 3:44am

Quote Are you actually aware of what Jihad is?
 
Thought not.

That second line is a little rude, isn't it, Odai?

I think I have a rudimentary understanding of what Jihad is.  In very general terms, I believe it to be religiously sanctioned violence conducted by members of the Islamic faith against those they believe to be enemies of their religion, their prophet and their God.

I'm sure there are many nuances and details that I am unaware of, but that definition is sufficient for a non-Muslim to understand the gist of it as it applies to us, I think. 

When a Muslim studies under the same Yemeni Imam who corresponded with, encouraged and praised our recent Fort Hood terroist/murderer, then boards an aircraft armed with a bomb and attempts to follow the orders he was given to detonate it over US soil, that's close enough for me.  I doubt he did it because Northwest Airlines refused him an upgrade to 1st class, wouldn't give him any more peanuts during the flight or anything like that. He's a Jihadist.

Do you believe the despicable little terrorist is not a Jihadist?

John Allard
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