Plane and a conveyor belt |
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dale_tem
First Officer Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Location: Berkshire, UK Points: 352 |
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Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 10:59am |
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I was wondering if this 'problem' has been discussed before....
A plane is standing on an immensly large conveyor belt. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyor moves in the opposite direction. This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the plane take off?
Apparently its quite confusing, and lots of airline pilots get confused.
If its been done before ignore me
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Dale
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dmr100
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Sheffield, UK Points: 1571 |
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Ooh nice question. But no, even if it left the ground it'd just fall back down again. It'd have no momentum when it got in the air. I think.
Dom |
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Magic Man
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: South Wales Points: 5336 |
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It will take off without issue, the wheels spinning twice as fast as normal take off speed.
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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But if the conveyor tracks the wheel speed and matches it, the plane would remain stationary, so you'd never get any airspeed (beyond the wind at the conveyor), as it'd be stationary relevant to the airflow.
You need airflow over the wings to generate lift. No airflow, no lift. |
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Rich
Just Flight Staff Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Planet Earth Points: 8543 |
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Wouldn't the plane be standing still if it was on a conveyor belt doing exactly the same speed as the wheels but in the opposite direction? If so then no it wouldn't take off. No air would be flowing over the wings so no lift would be generated. If an airline pilot got confused by that then god help us all!
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Magic Man
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: South Wales Points: 5336 |
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nope, it will take off without issue...
Think about the same thing with a car - there is a key difference.
Also, think about the same thing but an unpowered belt, like a rolling road...
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Rich
Just Flight Staff Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Planet Earth Points: 8543 |
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So you're saying an aircraft will take off purely from the thrust in the engines without any air moving over the wings?
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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Magic - the aircraft is STATIONARY with respect to the air mass it is within. Unless it's a harrier, it's not going to move upwards.
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Magic Man
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: South Wales Points: 5336 |
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A car on this conveyor belt will be stationary because its wheels are powered. The wheels on an aircraft are not, they freewheel... Go from there.
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Rich
Just Flight Staff Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Planet Earth Points: 8543 |
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Think about what happens if you are on a running machine holding a flag. You may look at the speedo and it tells you that you are running at 10MPH and your legs are moving at 10MPH. However, the flag will remain limp as no air is moving past it. An aircraft requires lift which is why it has wings(!) and has to hurtle down a runway at 100MPH in order to create the lift needed to get it off the ground. Just running the engines at 100% isn't enough to get it off the ground.
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Magic Man
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: South Wales Points: 5336 |
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Not the same thing, your legs are driving you in the opposite direction to the running machine. An aircrafts wheels do not do that.
Consider yourself on that running machine but wearing roller skates, you holding on the sides so that you are free wheeling. You are saying that you cannot pull yourself forward up the track...
The thrust of the aircraft will propel it along the moving conveyor belt, it's wheels rolling roughly twice as fast as if it was static. It will move therefore it will generate lift and take off...
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Rich
Just Flight Staff Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Planet Earth Points: 8543 |
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But in the question it says that "his conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes
the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite
direction)" which I take to mean that it will change speed to match whatever speed the wheels are doing. So, on my roller skates I would try to speed up but when I pull myself forward the treadmill would increase speed to match the increase in the speed of my wheels and I wouldn't go anywhere. I would only move forward if the speed on the treadmill stayed the same, which isn't the case here.
If the question was if the treadmill was moving at a constant, fixed rate (say 100MPH) then it could be done as your speedo would say 200MPH when you were actually doing 100MPH yourself (or I could still pull myself along on my skates if I had a rail). But if the speed of the treadmill then increased to 200MPH to match the wheels you still wouldn't be moving? |
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FSaddict
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 1067 |
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I agree with magic man it will takeoff without issue, since the force moving the aircraft forward through the air is the engines and not the wheels moving forward is not an issue
The conveyer belt is there just to confuse and make you question.
That is assuming that there is no friction caused by the wheels.
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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But the aircraft is stationary, so there'll be no airflow with respect to the surrounding air, so how exactly does that work?
In a roller skates example, you can, as you are creating a differential in speed between yourself and the track, and as your speed exceeds it's speed however breifly, you'll move. That assumes the track doesn't adjust to you pulling. However, with wings, there is no airflow over them. If you accelerate or travel faster than the track, you WILL get airflow, but if the track constantly matches the speed the aircraft is travelling, the aircraft will remain stationary at the same physical point, hence no airflow. I'm amazed you guys aren't getting the fact that the aircraft is stationary on a treadmill. Ask yourself this - if you run really fast on a treadmill, does the wind whistle past your ears??? |
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Slopey
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That's just it - it's not moving through the Air - it's stationary. The wheels rotate at the same speed as the track, but the aircraft doesn't move - the wheels do, otherwise, it'd run off the end of the track wouldn't it. |
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Rich
Just Flight Staff Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Planet Earth Points: 8543 |
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It's exactly the same principle as "would the aircraft take off with the engines at full thrust but the breaks on keeping the aircraft motionless". Of course it wouldn't!
Great question though! |
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Magic Man
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: South Wales Points: 5336 |
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But it cannot be kept stationary in this example since the wheels are not powered.
But it will move so there will be lift generated.
I'm amazed a qualified pilot (I think you are aren't you) is thinking the aircraft will remain stationary...
Not the same thing. Again, your legs are powering you, same as with the wheels of a car on this conveyor belt. Aircraft are not pushed/pulled along the runway on driven wheels...
No, since it's "immensley long"...
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Slopey
Moderator in Command AirHauler Developer Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Points: 8280 |
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But if it's on a treadmill, which matches the planes speed, as detailed in the question, the aircraft will stay stationary at one point. If it doesn't and moves forwards or backwards, then the control system of the treadmill is defective compared with the description in the question.
But again, that doesn't matter if the control system of the treadmill is matching the aircraft's speed. That implies that the control system is set up in such a way to keep the aircraft at a fixed point on the treadmill. If the control system is set up so that the aircraft is allowed to move, then the wording of the scenario is incorrect. |
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Slopey
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Then fair enough, but you still need the aircraft to achieve sufficient airflow over the wings by moving forward, which implied that the control system is not sufficiently adjusting for the aircraft's motion. So, the control system is broken. Or the question is worded incorrectly. |
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Slopey
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If I built a control system to match the objects speed, then it would remain stationary, otherwise, my control system doesn't work. And in that scenario, it wouldn't take off. |
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