Brit to be Executed in China |
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737Chris
Chief Pilot Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Location: The Abyss Points: 2247 |
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Posted: 28 Dec 2009 at 11:55pm |
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Bring him back here I say !
Unfortunately it sounds as though this bloke is not mentally sound either Im all for the death penalty, but not in this circumstance ! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8432948.stm |
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Edward Longe
Chief Pilot Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Location: West Mids Points: 5138 |
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The problem is Chris, mental illness isn't taken as serious over in China as it is over here. Their legal system is very differant to ours. For example, in China it is fine to download music illegally but you can be shot for watching the BBC. Communism is differant to Capitalism and people need to understand that. In a communist nation the Government has to be seen as strong to keep everyone in line and if they are seen to be weak many others on death row will argue mental illness as an excuse for them to live.
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BigTex
First Officer Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Location: RKSI - Seoul Points: 325 |
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I believe in the death penalty for murderers with a history of habitual violent crime and people who have taken other lives out of cruelty or during the commission of other crimes. However, this poor dude was used by some gangsters, and doesn't have the mental faculties to understand apparently. This is a terrible application of capital punishment.
The Chinese refuse to respect the laws and sovereignty of other countries, but when it comes to forcing their laws down the throats of others it is their way or the highway. grrrr
That's my $0.02.
Rick
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VulcanB2
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Points: 13365 |
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Hi,
It could be political - he's classed as "European". Best regards, Vulcan. |
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Odai
Chief Pilot Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: NW England Points: 3731 |
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ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Appalled is all I can say. Not surprised though, this is a nation that executes people by shooting them in football stadiums in front of a crowd. Not to mention allegations of execution to harvest organs for transplant.
Have the Chinese not realised we are in the 21st century?
Out of at least 3,800 executions worldwide in the year 2004, China executed at least 3,400 people.
They even have a purpose built ''death bus''.
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TomA320
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Perth Scotland Points: 10235 |
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He did carry the drugs to China, knowing that if he was caught he would be executed, he took this risk and it didn't pay off. I think the Chinese are quite right to execute him. After this, other people might thing twice about doing what he did.
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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If he was mentally ill Tom?
If he wasn't directly responsible for another's death?
If executing someone that's not 'directly' responsible for someones death is contrary to international law and basic morality?
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Edward Longe
Chief Pilot Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Location: West Mids Points: 5138 |
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Martin, China's legal system is very differant to ours and they aren't known for being lenient. In china, being mentally ill is not considered grounds for clemancy or aquitall. At the end of the day, you have to ask how much did the family care about him before he was locked up? If they had actully looked after him properly (and not let him cut of family ties) he wouldn't be dead. At the end of the day (whether he knew he was doing wrong or not) he did the crime so has to do the time.
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TomA320
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Perth Scotland Points: 10235 |
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If he was mentally ill Tom?
Yes, but I'm sure he still knew he was doing somthing wrong, and even somone who is mentally ill at his level still knows it's illegal to take drugs into a county. The Chinese can't just think because he is mentaly ill they must let him off with it, otherwise this is sending out the wrong message, isn't it?
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Edward Longe
Chief Pilot Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Location: West Mids Points: 5138 |
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Chinese can't just think because he is mentaly ill they must let him
off with it, otherwise this is sending out the wrong message, isn't it?
Correct Tom, Communism is based on control so letting him off the hook might cause others to argue the same case and that would weaken the Governments position and control over its people. |
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Flightboy
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Essex, UK Points: 7396 |
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I dont get that martin, it says "This guy was a very vulnerable person, extremely ill" then i assume the fact he was left to his own devices to be duped into commiting the crime in the first place has to be blamed on his family and friends? A drink driver dosnt have to kill anyone martin, the fact you get caught dosnt take away your criminal actions And depends on your view on morality, feeding hard drugs in society has some basic morl issues itself Right im off to the sales! Flightboy |
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Flightboy
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Essex, UK Points: 7396 |
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And reading a few articles on it in two years no one supplied china with proof he had mental helath issues? seems rather weird Flightboy |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Martin, China's legal system is very differant to ours
Yes Edward, I'm very aware of that. But not the point. The point is whether it's morally acceptable for a nation to kill an individual for a crime that didn't ''directly'' harm another. International law says no.
The Chinese didn't conduct any kind of mental health assessment of this individual at all. Despite being told he was mentally ill. Any civilised nation would have. Then a proper assessment of the validity of the bipolar claims could have been made.
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Yes, but I'm sure he still knew he was doing somthing wrong, and even somone who is mentally ill at his level still knows it's illegal to take drugs into a county.
Irrelevant. Knowing you are doing something wrong isn't the point. A mental illness can result in a crime being committed, despite that individual being aware of the wrongdoing or not.
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CyprusAirwaysA330
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: London Points: 1829 |
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Since when have the Chinese cared about international law? There seem to be some ambiguities about this story, it seems true that the man was mentally ill, but I'm not entirely sure about the drugs. As has been stated many times in this thread, the Chinese don't have any leniency for mentally ill people. This reminds me of another regime... and we all know what that regime ended up doing. If the man was caught with the cocaine, without having sold any, nor given any out, under law thats intent to supply. This does not have the same consequences as having already supplied drugs. Therefore, I find it a bit extreme that they execute him. Does anyone else here think that the actual execution of the man is not as important as the obvious political message China is making through this act? |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Not really. There are untold bipolar sufferers living in society on their own. Stephen Fry tried to gas himself with a car exhaust and disappeared for weeks. We can't exert total control over the mentally ill, and assign their family's to act as full time guardians. His family and friends are not legally bound to look after him. An individual can be very ill and not require constant supervision, when they are not a ''direct'' danger to themselves or others.
Of course, the drugs issue is a serious one. I can almost understand your stance on executing murderers, I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand the point of view. However, to execute an individual, that can't be directly connected with another's death is way beyond acceptable. It may well be, in fact probably likely, that none of the drugs this individual carried would have resulted in the death of anyone.
They may of course, and they may not, but we know for sure in this case they didn't.
It would be akin to stopping an attack on an individual, before a potentially lethal crime was committed. To use your car analogy, it would be like stopping an individual BEFORE he stepped in the car drunk. None of the drugs reached the market. And you don't kill somebody for that, not in a civilised society anyway.
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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Since when have the Chinese cared about international law?
We know they don't. And as I said in my first post, it doesn't surprise me that they did this.
Whether it's right or wrong seems to be the way this thread is going. Which surprises me greatly. I knew there were some members with extreme views, but honestly, agreeing with the killing of a man who ''may have been'' mentally ill, without any mental assessment, for a crime that resulted in zero casualties is obscene.
He was living in Poland, away from his family. He was frequently replying to his family incoherently, as his illness worsened. A group in Poland tricked him due to his vulnerable mental state into beliveing he could be successful in China. Conning him into taking bags into China follwed.
The story may not be true, he may have been aware, but this stuff is not new. Vulnerable Individuals being tricked into taking bags into other countries has occurred many time before. It's an old trick.
The Chinese claimed they had no evidence of his mental illness. But the UK authorities sent them plenty of evidence of his mental illness over the course of the proceedings, which the Chinese ignored. It was pointed out to the Chinese, that based on the evidence submitted, any court in any civilised part of the world would institute a proper medical assessment.
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Flightboy
Chief Pilot Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Location: Essex, UK Points: 7396 |
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But he drove the car already martin. If i see a man running towards 2 kids in the street with the knife and i take him down with a cricket bat does that make him less guilty because he was stopped from fulfilling his crime? Flightboy |
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MartinW
Moderator in Command Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: United Kingdom Points: 26722 |
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No Flighboy. The individual that has just been executed did not pass on a drug that would eventually result in the death of anyone. The drugs were ceased. No fatalities, no injury, no harm came to anyone. The only crime he committed was one of possession and for the state to kill an individual that has not caused harm to anyone is obscene.
The Chinese carried out an execution based on possession of a drug alone.
If i see a man running towards 2 kids in the street with the knife and i take him down with a cricket bat does that make him less guilty because he was stopped from fulfilling his crime?
He would be guilty of an ''attempted'' incident yes. But he would not be guilty of bodily harm. It makes him not guilty at all of committing a violent act. His only guilt was an ''attempt''. Therefore he would be tried in regard to an attempted crime. So let me get this straight.
You believe that it's perfectly okay, to execute a human being, take a man's life, not bothering to carry out a mental assessment, despite the possibility of him being mentally ill, and despite the fact that his actions directly harmed no one?
I seriously hope not.
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